Detecting Undead

[phindar]

The undead being covered under Know: Religion is a little odd. It makes sense since undead are sort of the responsibility of the cleric, but beyond that you could make a case for it being Know: Arc (undead are generally animated by magic), or Planar (tied to the Negative Energy Plane). I'm not saying it should be that way, only that Know: Religion doesn't leap into people's minds as the way to suss out a vampire's weaknesses. I was making a monster hunter npc one time and I wanted to make sure he had the right skills to know a little about any type of monster, and Undead being Knowledge Religion surprised me a little too.

Girallons are what, Magical Beasts? Makes it a Know: Arcana check to know about them? I could see a lot of monsters like that being under Know: Nature, because even if they aren't "natural" to us, they are natural in the context of a fantasy world. (I can't see a ranger being stumped by a girallon only to have the wizard step up and say, "No problem, I minored in four-armed gorillas back at the Collegium Magisterium.")

Let's say the necromancer is really sneaky. He kills some girallons using poison, so they won't be all cut up and bloody. Then he Gentle Reposes them, animates them as zombies, and then casts another spell to make them faster. (Haste, perhaps, at least until Undead Alacrity makes it in from the 2e Necromancer's Handbook.) The girallon's attack the party.

The party will roll Know: Arcana to get the skinny on girallons, but have no idea why they don't seem to be taking damage from piercing or bludgeoning damage. (For most players, that'd be the dead giveaway right there. So to speak.) At that point, just asking for a Know: Religion check is going to tell the pc's what they're facing, so the check should probably be rolled in secret. (Even if you can trust your players not to metagame, the unknown quantity is part of the fun, otherwise you could just tell them their fighting hasted zombie girallons and be done with the knowledge checks altogether.)

I'm not suggesting this is what happened, I'm just proposing it as a way to illustrate a point. Sometimes just asking for the Knowledge check gives as much information as the check itself.

 

[kinem]

If they had some kind of new undead template with no obvious effects on appearance or movement (so - not zombies), then indeed you'd have no way to know. But then the DM should have just said "No they are not undead" even though they are. And even now, you should never have learned what killed you.

 

[mvincent]

If they had some kind of new undead template with no obvious effects on appearance or movement (so - not zombies), then indeed you'd have no way to know.

I don't believe that to be a truism. A knowledgeable PC should have a chance at discerning unobvious clues as to their nature. The DM can set the DC at whatever he feels appropriate.

 

[mvincent]

The undead being covered under Know: Religion is a little odd. It makes sense since undead are sort of the responsibility of the cleric, but beyond that you could make a case for it being Know: Arc (undead are generally animated by magic), or Planar (tied to the Negative Energy Plane).

Well, technically: Gods and religions are also strongly tied to magic and the planes in D&D... so knowledge: religion isn't divorced from these areas, but is instead rather a related specialization.

The handling of the dead is typically a province of religion. Plus, (as you mentioned) D&D definitely associates the handling of undead as a province of the religious (i.e. clerics), so the delineation seems suitable enough for such a fantasy world (even if other knowledge areas could've been suitable).

 

[IcyCool]

Well, if you know there are undead around (at least in the future), then every hostile encounter should start with a Turn Undead attempt.

GM: "The back-alley thugs rush you and attack!"
Cleric: "I attempt to turn them!"
GM: "But why? They aren't undead."
Cleric: "How can you tell?"

 

[Mistwell]

Well, if you know there are undead around (at least in the future), then every hostile encounter should start with a Turn Undead attempt.

GM: "The back-alley thugs rush you and attack!"
Cleric: "I attempt to turn them!"
GM: "But why? They aren't undead."
Cleric: "How can you tell?"

And lose one of your precious remaining turn attempts, and a standard action, each time?

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

The question is whether the DM privately rolled the player's knowledge check to see if they could ID the creatures as undead. That is information we do not have. The players may well have failed their check, and therefore the DMs answer was accurate.

Nope, there was no role. I have confirmed this with the DM.

After some discussion post-game, he realized that his decision to try to add some mystery to the game ended up killing several characters with what would have been a relatively routine encounter.

 

[hong]

Nope, there was no role. I have confirmed this with the DM.

After some discussion post-game, he realized that his decision to try to add some mystery to the game ended up killing several characters with what would have been a relatively routine encounter.

And it might have worked if it wasn't for the fact he was using DAMN GIRALLONS!

 

[kinem]

A knowledgeable PC should have a chance at discerning unobvious clues as to their nature. The DM can set the DC at whatever he feels appropriate.

All the knowledge in the world won't help if there's nothing to see. But I guess you may mean there could be fine details that could be looked for, like a slight green tinge to the eyes. In such a case it might be appropriate to require, for example, both a Spot check and a Knowledge (religion) check (high DC's), both of course rolled in secret.

As for the case at hand - it sounds like the encounter was just too tough. I hope it doesn't discourage the DM from adding mystery in the future. New characters can be rolled up, but good DMs don't grow on trees, so I'd say that preserving his interest in mystery is WAY more important than some TPK.

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

I agree that flavor is important but it is not superior to the enjoyment of the game. Several players were pissed that they were killed by undead girallons that they could have easily handled with a turn undead check or specific spell, even while they were under attack from the other side. If the end product is frustrated players, the only mystery is why they continue to show up.

We got past it though. I just wanted to argue the point that flavor should not get in the way of having a good time. In this circumstance, it really caused a lot of problems, both in game and out.