Dex-Build for the Bard

[Nifft]

Can't you just make an Elf Cleric (laser variant) multiclassed into Ranger? Do a 18wis/18dex split and you should have a pretty sneaky leader with some striker-ish elements. You should be able to pick up a longbow that can be used vs foes that are at long range, and since the holy symbol doesn't use any hands, you can use that at close range.

Sure, and you could do that with any Leader by ignoring his secondary stat(s) and pumping Dexterity. But you're sacrificing class features for stealth, and that's something no other role has to sacrifice.

My question is: would it be terribly broken to have a Leader who actually got some Leader value out of Dexterity, right in his own class features?

So far the answer seems to be no, since nobody's finding anything wrong with the Bard switch-over.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Flipguarder]

You can't qualify for any of those feats with his build. I know this is House Rules, but c'mon. At least look up ONE of the feats you suggest.

He's spread his points thin, and you're showing exactly why it's too thin.

Nifft you are more intelligent than this. Don't be disingenuous. I could just as easily shift things around to grab those feats very easily. I start with an 8 in str when I could just as easily start str at 11 and wis at 8, then shift a point somewhere in my leveling to get it to 13

As to the topic. No I do not think it would be broken to allow prescient bards to use dex as their secondary stat. But if a player came to me with that, I would attempt to coax him into playing something along the lines of what I have given.

D&D character creation shouldn't be held accountable for making every idea of every character optimized, especially when the games level of difficulty (ascribed by the DMG) doesn't at all call for it. It's a game of give and take, not have your cake, eat it, then eat the other guys cake because that looks good too.

 

[Roger]

The problem is: it's hard to create a whole party based on being sneaky, because there are no sneaky Leaders. That problem exists.

If that's the only thing you're trying to solve, it might be less of a houserules footprint to invent some way of letting a character use Wisdom (or whatever) in place of Dex for the purposes of the Stealth skill.

But yeah I expect a high-dex, low-wis Bard would work out just fine. He'd be like that banjo-playing kid in Deliverance.



Cheers,
Roger

 

[Nifft]

As to the topic. No I do not think it would be broken to allow prescient bards to use dex as their secondary stat.

Whoa, on-topic! Thanks.

D&D character creation shouldn't be held accountable for making every idea of every character optimized

Character creation sets the bounds of optimization, as it should. You should give something up for gaining something else. The alternative is lack of balance.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

If that's the only thing you're trying to solve, it might be less of a houserules footprint to invent some way of letting a character use Wisdom (or whatever) in place of Dex for the purposes of the Stealth skill.

But yeah I expect a high-dex, low-wis Bard would work out just fine. He'd be like that banjo-playing kid in Deliverance.

Using Wisdom for Stealth would solve this case, but would have potential for nasty unintended consequences -- Wisdom is very strong already, because Perception is very strong. It's a stat that doesn't really need a buff in my opinion.

Intelligence could work, but then it's my opinion Canny Bards don't need the buff either. They do their thing very well, then at Paragon they can do their thing disgustingly well.

Thanks, -- N

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think of all the possibilities, allowing a class who utilises bows to use dexterity effectively makes by far the most sense.

I mean really, what were they thinking?

 

[Camelot]

While I'd really like to see a Cha/Dex bard build, I don't think it is necessary to change the bard build as is. Assuming it is balanced now, making it better at ranged weapons and initiative will up its power, even if that does make it not as good at a few skills.

I do plan on making a bard build that uses Dex, the option being the Virtue of Luck. Instead of revering heroes who are valorous, cunning, or prescient, these bards sing about people of whom success more or less fell in the lap.

If you really want a sneaky leader, the rules as written can achieve that, you just have to be creative.

 

[Nifft]

I think of all the possibilities, allowing a class who utilises bows to use dexterity effectively makes by far the most sense.

An argument could also be made for the Warlord, but I'll wait to see what they do in MP2 before trying to fix that one.

While I'd really like to see a Cha/Dex bard build, I don't think it is necessary to change the bard build as is. Assuming it is balanced now, making it better at ranged weapons and initiative will up its power, even if that does make it not as good at a few skills.

Because Combat Virtuoso and Versatile Master exist, granting a Dex-based ranged build doesn't actually increase the Bard's power with a bow: his best option is still to be a 20 Cha half-elf who twinks out with Twin Strike.

So I'd be adding a Dex rider instead of a Wis rider for all seven ranged powers which get one ... IMHO not a big deal.

If you really want a sneaky leader, the rules as written can achieve that, you just have to be creative.

That comes at the cost of your power riders & your class features.

It could be argued that Clerics can get away with this -- they really can rely on Wisdom for almost all of their heavy lifting -- but in my experience, a Bard's secondary stats matter a lot.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Camelot]

So I'd be adding a Dex rider instead of a Wis rider for all seven ranged powers which get one ... IMHO not a big deal.

And spreading out defenses, boosting AC and Reflex, when the build was built with the thought in mind that it would have lower defenses, thus ranged to avoid getting hit. You'd increase the bard's evasiveness and mess with balance. The powers and features and feats are meant to cover this hole, and switching Wis to Dex could easily imbalance them.

And if you're still trying to make the bard stealthy, that doesn't make sense fluffwise. The bard sings its attacks; it doesn't want to be stealthy, it wants to be blatant and annoying. You can say the same for clerics, that they don't want to be stealthy because they want their foes to be in awe of their god and know who they are being attacked by. And warlords, who would be at a serious disadvantage if they were trying to be stealthy because they wouldn't be able to communicate with their team members. And artificers, who like making things go boom, which you can't do quietly (thundering armor and aggravating force don't sound very stealthy to me). Basically the only leader who makes sense to have a general sneaky option is the shaman, and it does. I say general because there are always exceptions, like those tweaked out multiclassed cleric/rangers and whatnot.

 

[Nifft]

And spreading out defenses, boosting AC and Reflex, when the build was built with the thought in mind that it would have lower defenses, thus ranged to avoid getting hit. You'd increase the bard's evasiveness and mess with balance. The powers and features and feats are meant to cover this hole, and switching Wis to Dex could easily imbalance them.

No, because Canny Bards already exist.

Everything Dex can do, Int can do the same -- except Dex gets Initiative and Stealth, and Int gets Arcana with all its impressive rituals.

But in terms of defenses, you're dead wrong here. There already is an evasive Bard build, and it's not broken.

And if you're still trying to make the bard stealthy, that doesn't make sense fluffwise. The bard sings its attacks; it doesn't want to be stealthy, it wants to be blatant and annoying.

"One can only appreciate the music of a well-strung bow if one's ears are whet with silence."

Alternately: no, a Bard attacking with a Weapon keyword power is not required to sing. He can simply stab you in the face.

"Well strung... that's what SHE said!", -- N