Diablo IV

[deganawida]

I was pleased to not hear the word "nephalim" once in Act I of Diablo IV.

Wait, it wasn't said even once? Will wonders never cease! I got so sick of it in D3.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Wait, it wasn't said even once? Will wonders never cease! I got so sick of it in D3.

They very explicitly haven't talked about Inarius' and Lilith's children, beyond Rathma. Maybe it'll come up later, but right now, it looks like they are stepping back from it.

Our characters in D4 appear to be ordinary humans and not marked as special in any way at the start of the game.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Moreover, I think that one problem that Diablo and other similar franchises* face when it comes to their tone is that when they depict everyone as being just as bad (angels included) then it creates a sense that the world isn't worth saving. That's one thing that I would like to see in Diablo 4. Give me a sense that this world and its people are worth saving. Don't just repeatedly show me how terrible the world is. Don't just repeatedly tell me that angels are just as bad as demons. (Hooray for false equivalances in fantasy games!)

* This is also one of my criticisms of the TTRPG Shadow of the Demon Lord. It definitely reflects Schwalb's depression. Indeed, the more that I learned about the setting and its secrets, the more I felt that the Demon Lord should win and let the world be destroyed.

This is one of the biggest issues that I have with dark fantasy, and why it's ultimately just less compelling to me recently. Whether it's purely cynical in nature, or if it's like Warhammer 40k where it's so over-the-top that everyone really is different shades of evil, I just don't find it particularly fun. If I wanted endless stories with deeply cynical and fatalistic hopeless bends, I've already got Twitter.

Dark fantasy is really great in small doses as a foil to or spoiler for more traditional storytelling, but when it dominates it still gets exhausting. It still starts to feel it starts to come across as juvenile and derivative. And dark fantasy has been rather prominent since about 2008. Zombie apocalypses, the latter Harry Potter movies, Game of Thrones, The First Law Trilogy, Stranger Things, Berserk and Attack on Titan, etc. Even the more recent Marvel movies

 

[Scribe]

Whether it's purely cynical in nature, or if it's like Warhammer 40k where it's so over-the-top that everyone really is different shades of evil, I just don't find it particularly fun. If I wanted endless stories with deeply cynical and fatalistic hopeless bends, I've already got Twitter.

As a fan to the death of these types of settings, I burst out laughing at that comparison.

 

[deganawida]

Dark fantasy is really great in small doses as a foil to or spoiler for more traditional storytelling, but when it dominates it still gets exhausting. It still starts to feel it starts to come across as juvenile and derivative. And dark fantasy has been rather prominent since about 2008. Zombie apocalypses, the latter Harry Potter movies, Game of Thrones, The First Law Trilogy, Stranger Things, Berserk and Attack on Titan, etc. Even the more recent Marvel movies

I'd put it as starting earlier. I remember reading the first GoT book in paperback in the late 90s, and it already had a ton of praise. If you look at the overall cultural output from about 1994 and on in the US, you'll see a lot of stuff that starts to take a very cynical and depressed view of the world. Heck, look at comics: The 90s gave us the Death of Superman, Knightfall, Emerald Twilight, and numerous other stories where former heroes were deconstructed.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

This is one of the biggest issues that I have with dark fantasy, and why it's ultimately just less compelling to me recently. Whether it's purely cynical in nature, or if it's like Warhammer 40k where it's so over-the-top that everyone really is different shades of evil, I just don't find it particularly fun. If I wanted endless stories with deeply cynical and fatalistic hopeless bends, I've already got Twitter.

Dark fantasy is really great in small doses as a foil to or spoiler for more traditional storytelling, but when it dominates it still gets exhausting. It still starts to feel it starts to come across as juvenile and derivative. And dark fantasy has been rather prominent since about 2008. Zombie apocalypses, the latter Harry Potter movies, Game of Thrones, The First Law Trilogy, Stranger Things, Berserk and Attack on Titan, etc. Even the more recent Marvel movies

I think some of your examples have more hope in them than your premise states. Stranger Things will end with the original kids alive and the threat to Hawkins ended, once and for all, for instance.

Otherwise, I agree with you 100%.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'd put it as starting earlier. I remember reading the first GoT book in paperback in the late 90s, and it already had a ton of praise. If you look at the overall cultural output from about 1994 and on in the US, you'll see a lot of stuff that starts to take a very cynical and depressed view of the world. Heck, look at comics: The 90s gave us the Death of Superman, Knightfall, Emerald Twilight, and numerous other stories where former heroes were deconstructed.

Heck, Kingdom Come came out in 1997 as a reaction to years of cynicism and violence in comics.

 

[Bacon Bits]

As a fan to the death of these types of settings, I burst out laughing at that comparison.

Historically I've been a big fan, too. I did mention upthread that I'm currently playing Warhammer 40k Inquisitor.

It just feels overdone at the moment. I want something else. I'm tired of the consistent use of deconstruction to tell stories about how miserable everyone is.

I'd put it as starting earlier. I remember reading the first GoT book in paperback in the late 90s, and it already had a ton of praise. If you look at the overall cultural output from about 1994 and on in the US, you'll see a lot of stuff that starts to take a very cynical and depressed view of the world. Heck, look at comics: The 90s gave us the Death of Superman, Knightfall, Emerald Twilight, and numerous other stories where former heroes were deconstructed.

Well, there's always been some dark fantasy. It just feels like it's really dominant right now. GoT was published in the 90s, but it didn't reach the height of it's popularity until the mid 2000s. The First Law trilogy took off then, too. Zombie apocalypses, Nolan's Batman franchise, The Hunger Games, whatever Zack "Batman kills" Snyder is filming, etc. The Last of Us was just made into a series so we're back in that rather miserable universe. Like something has to be going wrong when The Witcher almost feels like it's refreshingly optimistic.

While it's always been popular, there's a glut of dark fantasy and dystopian fiction at the moment. And, you know, I just lived through a pandemic. I've got more work and less time at work and at home. My mental and physical health are not great. My nation's politics are so broken that it feels unfixable. Civil rights feel poised for significant rollbacks. The future of D&D looks boring and overmonetized. AI looks like it will be just another horrible power grab by tech corps to make our lives explicitly worse and more expensive. There's massive inflation. On and on and on.

And still, all that comes out are more stories about how sad and depressing someone in a fantasy world is, or how dystopian the future will be.

Can I please get a fairy tale ending sometimes? Maybe a story where, I don't know, nobody dies horribly?

I'm convinced this is why the D&D movie might be doing as well as it is. It's not a story about how terrible life has become.

 

[Scribe]

Historically I've been a big fan, too. I did mention upthread that I'm currently playing Warhammer 40k Inquisitor.

It just feels overdone at the moment. I want something else. I'm tired of the consistent use of deconstruction to tell stories about how miserable everyone is.

Yeah I'm not taking a run at you, I get it. It just aligns with my world views for a number of reasons that I'm sure nobody cares about really, and so for me dark fantasy, grimdark, cyberpunk, whatever one wants to call it, is simply 'it' for me. Its the best vehicle to convey how I feel about our society.

While it's always been popular, there's a glut of dark fantasy and dystopian fiction at the moment. And, you know, I just lived through a pandemic. I've got more work and less time at work and at home. My mental and physical health are not great. My nation's politics are so broken that it feels unfixable. Civil rights feel poised for significant rollbacks. The future of D&D looks boring and overmonetized. AI looks like it will be just another horrible power grab by tech corps to make our lives explicitly worse and more expensive. There's massive inflation. On and on and on.

Yeah see, you get it too.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Stranger Things will end with the original kids alive and the threat to Hawkins ended, once and for all, for instance.

Is this a prediction or based on an outright statement from the showrunners?

Because based on the previous shows, the general tone and approach to drama, and the movies/shows it is emulating I would fully expect 1-2 of the kids to end up heroically dead (or vanished into the Upside Down with no seeming hope for rescue) in the final episode. Obviously if it's a statement from the showrunners that overrides that and is surprising.

And dark fantasy has been rather prominent since about 2008. Zombie apocalypses, the latter Harry Potter movies, Game of Thrones, The First Law Trilogy, Stranger Things, Berserk and Attack on Titan, etc. Even the more recent Marvel movies

It's more prominent as a subgenre than it was in the '80s and before, but there are a couple of things worth noting:

1) The default for fantasy was a lot darker back then. Fantasy, on average, has got lighter since the 1980s and earlier. Especially if you're looking at novels, TV and movies. Bridge to Terabithia isn't "dark fantasy", for example, no matter how upsetting it is.

2) All the stuff you list is the exception, not the rule, and you're listing stuff that's wildly successful next to stuff that's a moderate niche success, and stuff that's slightly dark - i.e. has some bad things happen - but isn't really darker than "normal" fantasy in the '80s, like Harry Potter - next to stuff that's nearly pitch black, like Berserk or the more downer zombie stuff.

And "the more recent Marvel movies"? No. Absolutely not. Of those only Multiverse of Madness could even arguably be considered dark, and I'd say that was balanced by the extremely light-side No Way Home (i.e. where MCU Peter Parker finally finds his real compassion and moral center, and where all the bad guys get sent home healed*, not murdered). Wakanda isn't dark, given the ending(s). Thor 4 wasn't dark - a character dying doesn't make a film "dark fantasy", for god's sake. Quantumania is, I presume, not dark - certainly no-one I know who has seen it has suggested it was - the main comparator has been Star Wars.

Well, there's always been some dark fantasy. It just feels like it's really dominant right now. GoT was published in the 90s, but it didn't reach the height of it's popularity until the mid 2000s. The First Law trilogy took off then, too. Zombie apocalypses, Nolan's Batman franchise, The Hunger Games, whatever Zack "Batman kills" Snyder is filming, etc. The Last of Us was just made into a series so we're back in that rather miserable universe. Like something has to be going wrong when The Witcher almost feels like it's refreshingly optimistic.

This is all on you, frankly.

You're completely failing to differentiate stories which are incredibly dark and horrifying from stories which are ultimately hopeful, even joyful, but involve some degree of suffering on the way. They're not the same thing. The First Law is pitch black. Everything is bad. Everyone is bad (to varying degrees) and importantly, everything is going to get worse. The Hunger Games, on the other hand is extremely hopeful. Love changes the world for the better. Love and fellow-feeling/solidarity sparks a revolution. A dystopia is overthrown through bravery, sacrifice, grit and decency. The main character lives happily ever after with her boyfriend in the big house she dreamed of.

If that's not a happy enough ending to count as "fairy tale", then that's on you, but it's not a "dark" ending by any means, and they stories are hopeful about humanity's solidarity, decency and ability to overthrow tyranny. Even the hearts of the corrupt and venal, or totally superficial-seeming are touched and changed by love and hope for a better world in Hunger Games, for goodness sake.

Mentioning Hunger Games in the same breath as The First Law or GoT or even The Walking Dead is absolutely nonsense and illustrates a serious failure to engage with the themes and ideas of the works, and instead a focus on entirely superficial elements.

And even then - these are wildly in the minority, fiction-wise, here in 2023. You might have argued it more persuasively like, a decade ago.

* = I get that if we're intentionally literalist eejits they're potentially just gonna die, but that is clearly not the intention of the writers, given the emotional context and so on. The film was already too long, guys!

 

[Bacon Bits]

Yeah I'm not taking a run at you, I get it. It just aligns with my world views for a number of reasons that I'm sure nobody cares about really, and so for me dark fantasy, grimdark, cyberpunk, whatever one wants to call it, is simply 'it' for me. Its the best vehicle to convey how I feel about our society.

Yeah see, you get it too.

Yeah, I can sympathize with that, and I know you weren't taking a run or anything. I love the settings and the worlds.

Right now I want my fiction to be an escape, not a vehicle for examination. I'm looking for something to have fun with and maybe not be reminded of the world outside my living room for awhile.

 

[Scribe]

Yeah, I can sympathize with that, and I know you weren't taking a run or anything. I love the settings and the worlds.

Right now I want my fiction to be an escape, not a vehicle for examination. I'm looking for something to have fun with and maybe not be reminded of the world outside my living room for awhile.

My whole problem, is that a not-small part of me is pretty convinced that the beastmen have it right after all and our best course is to just burn it all down.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Is this a prediction or based on an outright statement from the showrunners?

Prediction. The core boys + Eleven from the original season have been imperiled, but never killed or seriously maimed. That's been the job of their supporting cast, including Barb, Bob and everyone else.

I predict that we're going to have an Infinity War situation where everyone but the original core characters (and I'd probably include Joyce and Hopper in this) will be dead or grievously wounded going into the finale two-parter (because of course it'll be a two-parter).

The "deaths" among the core cast will be the death of innocence (Will is still doing his best in that regard) and a farewell to childhood. They will end on a Stand By Me moment, rather than an It moment. (And I bet we get a Stephen King cameo before the end.)

I don't mean any of this as a criticism, but Stranger Things is meant to be 1980s Spielberg crossed with Stephen King, which shapes how the narrative will ultimately go.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Prediction. The core boys + Eleven from the original season have been imperiled, but never killed or seriously maimed. That's been the job of their supporting cast, including Barb, Bob and everyone else.

I predict that we're going to have an Infinity War situation where everyone but the original core characters (and I'd probably include Joyce and Hopper in this) will be dead or grievously wounded going into the finale two-parter (because of course it'll be two-parter).

The "deaths" among the core cast will be the death of innocence (Will is still doing his best in that regard) and a farewell to childhood. They will end on a Stand By Me moment, rather than an It moment. (And I bet we get a Stephen King cameo before the end.)

I don't mean any of this as a criticism, but Stranger Things is meant to be 1980s Spielberg crossed with Stephen King, which shapes how the narrative will ultimately go.

1980s Stephen King would 100% kill one of those kids. But yeah Spielberg wouldn't.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

1980s Stephen King would 100% kill one of those kids. But yeah Spielberg wouldn't.

I do think we are going to get some bad stuff happening to the other kids. Max is probably in for a hell of a ride in the final season, for instance.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I do think we are going to get some bad stuff happening to the other kids. Max is probably in for a hell of a ride in the final season, for instance.

Really? I get the feeling people like that character a lot more than most of the original group at this point, and she's already been through more than most of them. It seems like that'd be a bit of a misstep writing-wise, but then that wouldn't be uncommon in a final season of a successful show, where the writers totally miscalculate something because they're so pleased with themselves lol.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Moreover, I think that one problem that Diablo and other similar franchises* face when it comes to their tone is that when they depict everyone as being just as bad (angels included) then it creates a sense that the world isn't worth saving.

I don't think that necessarily follows - it only works that way if it really is everyone is - i.e. including all or the vast majority of humanity. Just because angels and demons both suck doesn't mean the world does - it means those being do.

I mean, massive spoilers for Supernatural but

Spoiler

both demons and angels are total and utter wankers, and Lucifer is completely awful and God, who initially seems maybe okay, turns out to be a complete and utter wanker too - and his sister? Also a jerk though she kind of has more of an excuse. And yet this works, because you're not rooting for any of those factions, you're rooting for the people, for Sam and Dean, for their friends, and so on. For humanity (and maybe the odd good supernatural being but Supernatural is a bit weird about that). It's a very far from perfect show, but it does manage to do the "angels and demons, god and lucifer, they almost all suck" thing and yet present the world - and the afterlife - as worth saving.

Unfortunately D3 was appallingly badly written (despite having some decent people working on that bit, oddly), and not only reversed what happened in D2 (for the most part), but made the angels and demons boringly equally bad, made the vast majority of humans bad, and made the PCs nephilim, which was dumb as hell as you noted.

 

[Aldarc]

I don't think that necessarily follows - it only works that way if it really is everyone is - i.e. including all or the vast majority of humanity. Just because angels and demons both suck doesn't mean the world does - it means those being do.

Unfortunately D3 was appallingly badly written (despite having some decent people working on that bit, oddly), and not only reversed what happened in D2 (for the most part), but made the angels and demons boringly equally bad, made the vast majority of humans bad, and made the PCs nephilim, which was dumb as hell as you noted.

I can't speak to a TV series I never cared to watch. I hope you understand that I am not necessarily talking in logical terms about what necessarily follows, but instead in more generalized terms as someone who is just talking about trends in the the genre in general.

I'm not really into stories that try to say that angels and demons suck just as much as each other, and I don't think that Diablo makes a compelling case that humanity sucks less than either angels or demons.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Really? I get the feeling people like that character a lot more than most of the original group at this point, and she's already been through more than most of them. It seems like that'd be a bit of a misstep writing-wise, but then that wouldn't be uncommon in a final season of a successful show, where the writers totally miscalculate something because they're so pleased with themselves lol.

Oh, I think the whole purpose of making the audience like someone in a show like this is so you can be mean to them. There's no point doing bad stuff to characters the audience is indifferent to. (This is also how I treat NPCs as a DM, so it's my worldview.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Unfortunately D3 was appallingly badly written (despite having some decent people working on that bit, oddly), and not only reversed what happened in D2 (for the most part), but made the angels and demons boringly equally bad, made the vast majority of humans bad, and made the PCs nephilim, which was dumb as hell as you noted.

So far in D4, the argument is that there are bad entities -- both supernatural and mortal -- in power, but there are people worth saving. There's a flawed NPC you meet in Act I whom my wife and I initially hated, then grew to see as a flawed but not terrible guy, and then raged at his fate.

It feels like this story is going to be more humanistic than the last one and maybe groping toward an ending where the forces of Heaven and Hell are locked out of Sanctuary again.