DIABOLIST (Glyph/Rune/Circle Arcane)

I'm writing a response to this thread, and it's rapidly becoming a Wall of Text. Key points:

  • All powers should use Intelligence for attack and damage rolls. Wisdom is used for concepts such as intuition, perception, and instinct, none of which apply to dutifully memorizing and drawing runes.
  • Wholly embrace circadianwolf's Area [number] squares within [range] concept. Powers would gain the Glyph keyword, which class features would key off of. This would be class-defining, rather than leave people asking why this couldn't be a variant Wizard or Artificer.
  • It cannot be stressed enough: Leader classes need a [adjective] Word, minor-action healing power. The Healing Surge and Rest system can't function without it.
  • Sunken/Soaring Power is too selfish, and too powerful. Give the bonuses to your allies, perhaps within a certain range of a Glyph power.
  • Lose the weapon attacks, gain melee touch implement attacks.

Thanks for taking the time to check out my class! Also, plz allow me to address your comments:

Bullet point #1: You will notice that martial classes often work off a single stat, but leaders such as the Cleric and Paladin have powers that work off a double-stat, either-or system. Thus, I think the dichotomy I selected for the Diabolist between Int and Wis fits appropriately to the spirit of those classes. Also, it is a matter of opinion what sorts of powers Wisdom fits to--If you read the flavor text for Art of the Deep and Art of the Yonder, one is wisdom-leaning, the other intelligence-leaning. I'm quite happy with the way this is, as written.

Bullet point #2: A Glyph keyword is a great idea, and I will look into that for sure!

Bullet point #3: Glyph of Draining is healing based, but you can never have enough so I will look into bolstering the Diabolist's healz.

Bullet point #4: Sunken Power/Soaring Power. Some leaders lead from the front, and certainly a leader who can keep themselves strong (and upright!) is a boon to their entire group, so I think it's unfair to say these powers are "selfish". To me, their is no unwritten rule that *every single* power a leader has *must* boost others and not themselves. Also, the fact that you are getting a +2 PB is nice, but it is towards a *single* stat
which may or may not even come into play (though if a save of that type does, you will get a decent amount of help with it-- +1 is not quite enough impact for me to a single stat).

Bullet point #5: This one is easy. Most leaders incorporate Weapon attacks, so they can lead "from the front" shoudl they choose to. WotC intended that, so player won't be "shoehorned" into playing the leader class the same way (from the back). Remember, WotC also intends it's "roles" to be more of a guideline than a "you must play this way" sort of thing.

So As you can see, I disagree with you on points 1, 4 & 5, but like your ideas/critiques on points 2 & 3. Thanks again for the input.

If i have any complaint it's that I could use a bit more encouragement of a positive sort---making classes in 4ed is pretty challenging, and I am definately trying to have fun and present some new things....
 
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OK, let's rock this and see if we can't fix some wording, some mechanics, and maybe even add some ideas. I've only gone through the first section as I'd actually like to post this before it gets out of control.

DIABOLIST
First of all: Cool name.

[Spell Circle: Boost]
"Fingers or rod aglow with brilliant light, you cast a circle about the area, encompassing your allies and strengthening them."
Encounter- Arcane Standard Close burst 5
Targets: You and each ally in burst
Effect: Grants a +2 Power Bonus to either Attack rolls (often Destruction) or AC (often Protection) until encounter ends.
I’m not too hot on this one, especially since it’s powerful and effectively permanent. You’re going to be spending the first round of every encounter putting this thing up because it’s so useful; that’s not a good sign. No offense, but I’d suggest scrapping it and adding a proper heal (or find a balanced way to simulate 4th Edition healing, which is much more difficult.)

[Sunken Power]
As long as you have any rune, glyph, or circle active in the current encounter, gain a +2 Power Bonus to all Fort saves.

[Soaring Power]
As long as you have any rune, glyph, or circle active in the current encounter, gain a +2 Power Bonus to all Ref saves.
OK, let's move over to these guys. Your class is a Leader, which means class features should be primarily benefiting your allies rather than yourself. It's certainly not unknown to branch out (the Shaman's iconic spirit opportunity attacks coming to mind), but otherwise it's a good idea to spread the love. This seems like a very selfish class feature, if you understand what I'm saying; while you seem to want some Diabolists to wield weapons (more on that in a minute), it's strange to give them a defensive bonus outside of the usual +2 inherent bonuses that classes give out.

Another problem is the amount of defense-boosting you're giving out. At Paragon Levels, for example, the solid sound feat grants a +2 to one non-AC defense whenever you use a specific type of attack, much like your class feature. However, it has one major difference: it only lasts until the end of your next turn, requiring you to continue hitting with Force or Thunder attacks to keep up the bonus. "Runes, glyphs or circles" covers nearly everything! Also bear in mind that solid sound can only be taken at 11th level or above; Sunken Power and Soaring Power kick in at 1st level.

Also, what does "active" mean? Technically, powers that don't have some sort of tangible effect (such as conjurations or summons) are "over" once you've used them, ongoing effects like poison or not. Circadian had an absolutely fantastic idea that needs expanding:
Glyphs, runes, and circles suggest zones to me, perhaps with at-wills featuring the underused "area 1 square" range (currently only seen in the wizard's Cloud of Daggers).
Let’s run with this, shall we? We’ll make our own keyword for this to bounce off of, and let’s see if we can make these class features help the rest of the group as well as ourselves.

[Sunken Power]
While you or an ally is within 1 square of one of your conjurations with the Glyph keyword, that creature gains a +1 bonus to Fortitude.
See? Isn’t that nicer to your friends, making them appreciate you as a Leader and wanting to buy you chips? Oooh, let’s give them cool effects, too! As long as we’re scrapping Spell Circle: Boost, let’s salvage from it and integrate it.

[Sunken Power]
While you or an ally is within 1 square of one of your conjurations with the Glyph keyword, that creature gains a +1 bonus to AC and Fortitude.

[Soaring Power]
While you or an ally is within 1 square of one of your conjurations with the Glyph keyword, that creature gains a +1 bonus to Reflex and attack rolls.
There! Now, technically, the bonuses from Spell Circle: Boost are still there all encounter (in a lesser form), but your players have to work for them.

Master Ritualist
You gain the Ritual Caster feat as a bonus feat, allowing you to use magical rituals. Additionally, when casting any ritual it's cost and cast time are both reduced by half, excepting the following rituals: Enchant Magic Item, Brew Potion.

[Glyph of Draining]
The life force of your foe is stolen by this greedily pulsing glyph to benefit a chosen ally.
At-Will- Arcane, Healing, Implement Standard Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Fort Hit: 1d6 + Wis mod damage
Effect: One ally adjacent to the target regains HP equal to half the damage inflicted.
This is a little dangerous, especially when a character scores a critical hit. To compare, the Cleric’s recovery strike heals equal to its Charisma modifier. How about “Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier damage, and one ally adjacent to you or the target regains hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier”?

[Glyph of Rebuking]
A searing glyphic symbol delivered with contempt that also befuddles the hapless foe.
At-Will- Arcane, Implement Standard Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will Hit: 1d8 + Int mod damage
Effect: Target is Dazed (save ends).
This is kind of ridiculous on a few levels.

  • An at-will power with an Effect clause.
  • An at-will power that Dazes.
  • A power that is not Daily with a (save ends) effect.
If you'd like to confuse the target, how about a -2 to attack rolls, or a -2 to a defense, or granting combat advantage to the next ally that attacks the target? Whichever you choose, make sure it only grants its bonus if the attack hits.
[Radiating Strike]
As your strike connects, gentle restorative magics ebb out to heal nearby allies.
At-Will- Arcane, Healing, Weapon Standard Melee weapon Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. AC Hit: 1[W] + Wis mod damage
Effect: All allies adjacent to target when hit regain HP equal to the caster's Con mod.
Special: Counts as a Basic Melee attack.
This is dangerous as well; melee basic attacks can be used as opportunity attacks, which means fleeing enemies would inadvertently heal allies. While this sounds nice, Protector Shaman Spirit Companions have a similar ability: spirit's shield, which is much, much less powerful than Radiating Strike: it deals much less damage, the healing is to only one person, and can't be used as a regular attack. Try using that (or recovery strike, above) as a guideline.
[Rune of Excitation]
A tiny fiery rune appears on the target's held item or weapon, instantly exciting it's molecules to white hot intensity.
At-Will- Arcane, Fire, Implement Standard Ranged 5
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Ref Hit: 2d4 + Int mod damage
Effect: Afflicted item may be dropped immediately. If not, target takes ongoing fire damage 2 (save ends).
Special: Counts as a Basic Ranged attack.
This is basically magic missile, but with an extra ability. It's a great ability, actually, it's just an effect that I wouldn't put as an at-will power. Try making it a Daily ability, increasing the initial and ongoing damage, and checking it against similar "disarming" power.

As much as it looks like I'm tearing your class apart, it's because it does really, really look like a good idea and I'd like to help! With your permission, I'd like to take a crack at remaking the class, if you don't want to tweak it or aren't still working on it. Would you mind?
 

Thanks for taking the time to really look at the class. Of the one's I've been working on, I think this has the potential to be the strongest. One thing is I've only had 4ed like a month, and at this point I can conceptualize a class better than mechanically implement it, so I am happy to get some help. :)

In regards to [Glyph of Rebuking], circadian already set me straight on the whole "dazing" thing, and I already acknowledged that needs a fix. Also, I addressed my reasoning in regards to "selfish" powers in a previous response (about how staying upright as a leader is also important etc. etc.) But, Dire Human, I am a *huge* fan of people buying me chips so anything that helps that is okay with me!

Would be happy for you to work-up a version of the class. Maybe I can take what I like from both versions and meld them b/c I absolutely want to use this class and offer it to others.
 

In regards to [Glyph of Rebuking], circadian already set me straight on the whole "dazing" thing, and I already acknowledged that needs a fix. Also, I addressed my reasoning in regards to "selfish" powers in a previous response (about how staying upright as a leader is also important etc. etc.)
Sorry about that: I started writing when you first posted it, and had to cut my comments short when I saw it was becoming even more of a Wall of Text.

When I'm finished with my version, I'll post a link to my blog here. Thanks!
 

Sorry about that: I started writing when you first posted it, and had to cut my comments short when I saw it was becoming even more of a Wall of Text.

When I'm finished with my version, I'll post a link to my blog here. Thanks!

No, thank you! I'm honored that you see enough potential to bother. Can't wait to see what you come up with. :D
 

It seems the Runepriest (PHB 3) and the Human Diabolist (MM2) have some elements of what I was going for here. I find that the 4E ppl designing our beloved game seem to end up doing the same things I do for homebrew, so everytime I come up with something they do it and I *sigh* and move on. Oh well, there are always more ideas out there!
 

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