D&D 4E Did Anybody Figure Out How They Determined Damage Dice For Implement Powers?

[b_took]

It seems awfully arbitrary. Why is Lightning Serpent (Wizard 9) 2d12 while Prismatic Beams (Wizard 15) ends up being 4d6? What determines when a d10 is used? I've tried to account for disabling effects, AoE, etc., but I can't seem to find any recognizable pattern.

Were they perhaps just going with whatever sounded good at the time?

 

[Tigris]

I would say some is nostalgia. Like fireball does d6 because fireball did d6 in prior editions: AD&D 1E - Fireball throughout the ages


I am not sure if there is any strict logic, because when you look at monsters they cared mostly for the average damage (making average correct according to monster math).


What I can say is that normally ongoing damage is counted as doing 2 times damage (in average).


I can also tell you that dailies were assumed to do around 3dx damage at level 1 and 1dx more for each daily level up to 9dx at level 9 if it has no too big effect (except half damage in miss). This can be seen most easily in barbarian rage strike.




Strong effects often give 1 less dice or at least weaker than normal dice. Normal dice is d8 (2 upgrades and 2 downgrades possible).


In general encounter and daily powers can be seen as "X upgrades over at will" (his can be nicely seen with the psionic powers costing power points).


A level 1-7 encounter is 2 upgrades over an at will. 1 upgrade is normally 1 more damage dice. And 1 upgrade is a stronger effect (better rider). Instead of a dice upgrade you can also have 2 effect upgrades.


Encounter power upgrades can be seen nicely from the power points from psionics.


1,3,7 are 2 upgrades each (1 damage 1 rider normally)

13 is 1 more upgrade than 1 so 3 upgrades (2 damage 2 rider normally)

17 is 2 more upgrades from 3 (3 damage 1 rider or 2 and 2). This is important because on level 21 at will upgrades

21 the 2 power points I assume are because of the noemal upgrade to at wills. This is a bit strange, but I count them towards the at will upgrades


23 is 2 more upgrades than 7 so 4 (3 damage 1 rider normally). Important here is that at wills got also an upgrade at this level (in 1 damage dice), so this is 4 damage dice over original level 1 at will.

27 is 2 more upgrades than 13 so 5 (4 damage 1 rider) again over upgraded at will.


The 1 more upgrade at level 27 does balance out the level 17 which has 1 less upgrade (since at wills were not upgraded then).


We can also see the same structure in the essential classes. The encounter powers do 1 upgrade in effect, and 1 upgrade in damage per tier over at will/basic attack.


Daily 1 is 2 upgrades over encounter 1 or 4 over at will 1. (So 2 dice more than at will (1 than encounter) and stronger effect than an encounter normally).


For the barbarian rage strike we can only see the damage upgrades. I think the 2 effect upgrades are half damage on miss and "this is an alternative to rage" which normally has more upgrades in the encounter long effect instead of damage. (But because this "alternative" is not really an effect rage strike feels weak).


All higher level dailies are 1 more upgrade from the last. ( 4 at 1, 5at 2, 6 at 9, 7 at 15 usw.)



For lightning serpent I assume the 2d12 (13) to be used instead of 3d8 (13.5) to have slightly more variance, since the spell else is really consistent (slow always and 5 fixed ongoing damage). This would give the 5 damage dice (3 from 3d8 + 2 from 5 ongoing (ongoing counted twice 5 is 1 damage dice) + 2 effects (miss damage and miss effect).



Fireball the level 5 spell uses 4d6 for nostalgia over 3d8 (same damage less variance) and has 3 mechanic upgrades (burst size 2 times and half damage).


Prismaric beams the 2d6 are fire damage like fireball, also the other damage dice are all rather big (5 ongoings). It does 8 dice of damage (10 ongoing = 2×2, 5 ongoing = 1×2, 2d6) and has 1 effect (daze). The effect is slighly stronger than normal but the noemal half damage effect most dailies have is also stronger than a normal rider so it evens out. (7 damage dice upgrades)


I hope this helps a bit.

 

[b_took]

For lightning serpent I assume the 2d12 (13) to be used instead of 3d8 (13.5) to have slightly more variance, since the spell else is really consistent (slow always and 5 fixed ongoing damage).

That sounds like a solid principle: more variable damage the more consistent the other parts of a power are. Thanks for the in-depth analysis; I'd figured out weapon powers for the most part, but implement powers were throwing me.

 

[Tigris]

That sounds like a solid principle: more variable damage the more consistent the other parts of a power are. Thanks for the in-depth analysis; I'd figured out weapon powers for the most part, but implement powers were throwing me.

I think one additional thing one could think about (but thats inconsistent) is that having higher damage dice is a kind of "mini striker" feature.


So strikers (which also have weaker control on spells) normally also have slightly higher damage dice on abilities. (Like sorcerer at will vs wizard).


But yeah its really not all too consistent, but the other analysis I posted neither. (like some dailies are just too bad like level 29 fighter daily basic 8dW daily (which can be used as a charge (which a basic attack also can..)))



EDIT: May I ask what insights you had with weapon powers? I always glad to learn something new.

 

[b_took]

You actually covered most of them in your analysis. One I've noticed is that multiple attacks tend to halve the dice for each attack. Before splatbooks added a ton of static damage, that was fairly reasonable.

Using Rage Strike as a baseline, it looks like most weapon powers lose a W if they're ranged, presumably because a ranged attack is easier to use, generally speaking, than a melee attack.

Martial powers in general tended to have one higher W than baseline.

I agree on the consistency thing, though; just looking at Invoker at-wills in the PHB2, they go all the way from no dice to 1d10.

Could the defense a power targets have something to do with altering its default damage die?

 

[Tigris]

Well no dice attacks exist, but they are different in a sense, they are really mostly for minion popping and the rider.


I fully agree about the multi attacks, the big amount of extra static damage is what makes these too strong. With PHB only it was really reasonable and a fair trade off.


Hmm not sure about the defenses, or maybe indirectly. I feel that some elements have their favoured dice. And elements most of the time targets always the same defense (reflex for fire, fortitude for ice etc.)