Did I read the saint right...can heal 1/2 his level per round???

[Elric]

I thought the sentiment was more general than that. I can't say I have seen many threads disproving the fact that monk + VoPov is a little overboard.

If it's not the case and I've made a wrong assumption (because I haven't yet seen that combo in play), then I'm sorry, but I will say that we made 12th level characters for a possible game we'll play in, and even with my best efforts (I am not the best powergamer out there I'll admit), my ~30 STR Goliath Barbarian/Fighter would have had trouble defeating the VoPov monk in the party, and defeating stuff in combat was the ONLY thing he was good at.

AR

12th level is around when I found the power of a VoP monk peaked, by the way (at least for levels 10+, since I switched my character over after we got BoED). Magic item value starts to increase way too vast for VoP to keep up in another 3-4 levels.

Suppose that your totally generic fighter-type (no class abilities, hardly any feats) buys, off the top of my head, from the DMG:

Boots of Speed (when activated, +1 to hit/ac/refl saves, 1 extra attack/round)
Ring of Deflection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ioun Stone of Insight +1
Cloak of Resistance +3
(31k)

+1 Animated Heavy Shield (9k)
Mithril Breastplate +3 (13k)
+2 Greatsword (8k)

+4 Belt of Str
+2 Gloves of Dex
+2 Bracers of Con
(24 k)

So this character has spent around 86k of money and has (w/ the boots activated):

Pluses to AC: +8 armor + 3 shield + 1 increased dex + 1 deflection + 1 natural armor + 1 Boots of speed + 1 insight= +16 (+original Dex bonus and any other bonuses) AC.

+5 to hit and +5 to damage w/ a two-handed weapon (Greatsword, Str bonus, Boots of Speed), 1 extra attack a round when making a full attack (10 rounds/day)

+4 Fort save, +5 Ref save, +3 Will save, +12 HP

Given, say, 16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con to start and no feats besides Weapon Focus: Greatsword and Dodge (I can even make him human, to boot)

This character has (w/ boots, w/out rage):
23 Str (+3 levels, +4 magic), 29 AC, 110-125 HP, attacks at +22/+22/+17/+12 (+12 base, +6 Str, +2 magic, +1 focus, +1 Boots) for 2d6 + 11 (18 average damage).

Let’s say your Vow of Poverty Monk has better stats than the generic fighter guy:
19 (using 2 from levels and 2 from VoP) Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Wis, 15 Cha and Holy Ki Strike

AC= 26 (+10 VoP, +2 Wis, +2 Dex, +2 Monk). HP: around 85

He attacks at +15/+10, which becomes +15/+15/+15/+10 w/ Flurry (+9 base, +1 focus: unarmed, +3 Str, +2 magic). He does (12th level is great for Monks) 2d6 + 3 + 2 (+2d6 vs. evil)= 4d6+5= 19 damage.

Now, your Monk hits on a “14” with 3 attacks and a “19” with another- ignoring criticals, that averages 1.15 hit in 4 attacks. So he does 19*1.15 dmg a round. He kills the fighter in 5.5 rounds.

The fighter hits the monk on a “4” with 2 attacks, a “9” with one, and a “14” with another. His crits are better than the monk’s crits, but we’re ignoring those. He has an average of a little over 2.5 hits a round. At 18 damage a hit, that’s 45 damage a round. He kills the monk in two rounds.

I could have some numbers slightly off, but the result is simple: against higher AC opponents, the monk’s low attack bonus prevents him from being an effective fighter. Note that the fighter’s next 30k of gold (roughly a level) buys him upgrades to: +3 Greatsword, +2 amulet of nat armor, +2 ring of deflection, +4 Mithril Armor, +2 animated shield (and +4 cloak of res if he has another 7k to spare). That’s up to 33 AC, another +1 to hit and damage and maybe +1 to saves.

What does the Monk’s next level get him? Spell Resistance. Is it a good thing to have? Definitely. Does it help his offense? Not at all.

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

why would the monk put his bonus VoP in str not wis...

My 12th level Monk with VoP from 1st level has touch of Golden Ice-yah you will make your save 90% of hits but when you do fail -3 dex second hit -6 dex = total -9 average. Intuit strike, which = use wis to hit not str so my pc put an 18 to wis at 1st level, +1 at 4th, +2 7th VoP, +1 8th, +5 at 12th (+4 VoP + 1 level) = 27 wizdom = + 8 to Will Saves, +8 to hit and +8 to AC....I would be a fool not to max out the wisdom and pick intuit strike (exalted feat BoED).

He receives +2 to hit VoP, +8 wis, +8 BAB = +18 (usually the party buffs w/ Owls Wis) = +20 to hit, + wep focus = 21 He also has lightening fists giving him +16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11 or 21/21/21/16

pretty good for a guy barefoot in a robe with a staff/walking stick and the feat that gives you 2x str damage for using it two handed.

Thorncrest

12th level is around when I found the power of a VoP monk peaked, by the way (at least for levels 10+, since I switched my character over after we got BoED). Magic item value starts to increase way too vast for VoP to keep up in another 3-4 levels.

Suppose that your totally generic fighter-type (no class abilities, hardly any feats) buys, off the top of my head, from the DMG:

Boots of Speed (when activated, +1 to hit/ac/refl saves, 1 extra attack/round)
Ring of Deflection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ioun Stone of Insight +1
Cloak of Resistance +3
(31k)

+1 Animated Heavy Shield (9k)
Mithril Breastplate +3 (13k)
+2 Greatsword (8k)

+4 Belt of Str
+2 Gloves of Dex
+2 Bracers of Con
(24 k)

So this character has spent around 86k of money and has (w/ the boots activated):

Pluses to AC: +8 armor + 3 shield + 1 increased dex + 1 deflection + 1 natural armor + 1 Boots of speed + 1 insight= +16 (+original Dex bonus and any other bonuses) AC.

+5 to hit and +5 to damage w/ a two-handed weapon (Greatsword, Str bonus, Boots of Speed), 1 extra attack a round when making a full attack (10 rounds/day)

+4 Fort save, +5 Ref save, +3 Will save, +12 HP

Given, say, 16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con to start and no feats besides Weapon Focus: Greatsword and Dodge (I can even make him human, to boot)

This character has (w/ boots, w/out rage):
23 Str (+3 levels, +4 magic), 29 AC, 110-125 HP, attacks at +22/+22/+17/+12 (+12 base, +6 Str, +2 magic, +1 focus, +1 Boots) for 2d6 + 11 (18 average damage).

Let’s say your Vow of Poverty Monk has better stats than the generic fighter guy:
19 (using 2 from levels and 2 from VoP) Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Wis, 15 Cha and Holy Ki Strike

AC= 26 (+10 VoP, +2 Wis, +2 Dex, +2 Monk). HP: around 85

He attacks at +15/+10, which becomes +15/+15/+15/+10 w/ Flurry (+9 base, +1 focus: unarmed, +3 Str, +2 magic). He does (12th level is great for Monks) 2d6 + 3 + 2 (+2d6 vs. evil)= 4d6+5= 19 damage.

Now, your Monk hits on a “14” with 3 attacks and a “19” with another- ignoring criticals, that averages 1.15 hit in 4 attacks. So he does 19*1.15 dmg a round. He kills the fighter in 5.5 rounds.

The fighter hits the monk on a “4” with 2 attacks, a “9” with one, and a “14” with another. His crits are better than the monk’s crits, but we’re ignoring those. He has an average of a little over 2.5 hits a round. At 18 damage a hit, that’s 45 damage a round. He kills the monk in two rounds.

I could have some numbers slightly off, but the result is simple: against higher AC opponents, the monk’s low attack bonus prevents him from being an effective fighter. Note that the fighter’s next 30k of gold (roughly a level) buys him upgrades to: +3 Greatsword, +2 amulet of nat armor, +2 ring of deflection, +4 Mithril Armor, +2 animated shield (and +4 cloak of res if he has another 7k to spare). That’s up to 33 AC, another +1 to hit and damage and maybe +1 to saves.

What does the Monk’s next level get him? Spell Resistance. Is it a good thing to have? Definitely. Does it help his offense? Not at all.

 

[Elric]

You seem to have missed the point. My point wasn't that my "generic fighter with no classes, race, or anything else" is better than "your" fully-optimized 12th level Monk who ignores stacking restriction and benefits from a number of rules read incorrectly in his favor.

Isn't this a PC in your campaign anyway? "My player's PC can beat up your fighter" has to be one of the most ridiculous things ever.

My point was that Vow of Poverty provides bonuses that are, numerically, not as good as comparable magic items. This effect is there at level 12 and by level 17 it is incredibly pronounced.

Lastly, you might want to think a little harder before taking Lightning Fist. When you already have 4 attacks the feat is almost completely useless. Vow of Perfection would be more in keeping with the entire concept of and behind the character (edit- apparently this doesn't exist- Bonus: +2 perfection bonus to all die rolls, prereq: 18 Cha and being really good sounds about right to me.

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

I was anit Monk until this PC...SO I am saying they at least compete now

I think Im offended by Elric, just a little snippy/rude for my blood.
I dont know if your " your pc is better than my pc" comment was aimed at me puposely or not but that was not my intent. I was merely saying that monks are at least competative now in a huge contrast to 2nd addition monks. And as far as my Monk being in violation of stacking, name 1! His deflect, natural and exalted ac bonuses are not stacked, hit to hit is not stacked, his damage, move, amount of attacks, feats all by RAW....So this is the second thing your reacting to thats incorrect.(decafe) And yes this is a PC in our campaign, why? And why is lightening fists useless it adds 2 more attacks, and if your opponent has a low ac this will be a great option. You obviously dont have to use it everytime, just when you think more attacks will be optimal.

Again I found your response un called for and snippy/rude...and incorrect!

Thorncrest

You seem to have missed the point. My point wasn't that my "generic fighter with no classes, race, or anything else" is better than "your" fully-optimized 12th level Monk who ignores stacking restriction and benefits from a number of rules read incorrectly in his favor.

Isn't this a PC in your campaign anyway? "My player's PC can beat up your fighter" has to be one of the most ridiculous things ever.

My point was that Vow of Poverty provides bonuses that are, numerically, not as good as comparable magic items. This effect is there at level 12 and by level 17 it is incredibly pronounced.

Lastly, you might want to think a little harder before taking Lightning Fist. When you already have 4 attacks the feat is almost completely useless. Vow of Perfection would be more in keeping with the entire concept of and behind the character (edit- apparently this doesn't exist- Bonus: +2 perfection bonus to all die rolls, prereq: 18 Cha and being really good sounds about right to me.

 

[Elric]

I played a Vow of Poverty Monk for a while, so the example I used was based on my own observations within the party.

Take another look at how you arrive at the monk's wisdom bonus. It is not correct (stacking, plus the vow of poverty bonuses).

Lightning Fists is break even when you hit 75% of the time. For it to be worth a 10% increase in damage, you need (your attack bonus +2) to equal the target's AC. As Monks don't have the highest attack bonus in a given party, this is an incredibly unlikely event (except against something like a bear).