digital insider: Monk in PH3, playtest in May

[Drakhar]

In practice I think it does - I've been calling the fighter a 'martial controller' for a long time now - because more than any other class it dictates what the bad guys can and cannot do during a fight. The fighters stickyness is like superglue - very hard for enemies to get detached and go and do what they want to do. Bad enough in open ground, in dungeon settings the fighter has a 'zone of control' that allows THEM to determine what options the other guys have.

Controlling the battlefield? They do it all day, every day, without using any powers - just their class features.

(nb, I wonder what degree of 'control' wizards can manage without using any powers and only relying on their class features...)

Cheers

This. And it gets even more evident when you give a fighter a reach weapon. A glaive using fighter polearm master just stops things from getting around him.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In practice I think it does - I've been calling the fighter a 'martial controller' for a long time now - because more than any other class it dictates what the bad guys can and cannot do during a fight. The fighters stickyness is like superglue - very hard for enemies to get detached and go and do what they want to do. Bad enough in open ground, in dungeon settings the fighter has a 'zone of control' that allows THEM to determine what options the other guys have.

Controlling the battlefield? They do it all day, every day, without using any powers - just their class features.

(nb, I wonder what degree of 'control' wizards can manage without using any powers and only relying on their class features...)

Cheers

I think there is an overlap between Defender and Controller, but one big difference is: The Defender, how ever he "controls" his opponents, his abilities work to reduce the benefits of not attacking him. The Controller doesn't want to get hit (and he can act at range).

If you look at the Fighters At-Will powers - which of them exactly are good controller powers?

The Wizards At-Will attacks might lack some punch and control, but I think Thunderwave and Scorching Burst make him explain pretty well where he wants his enemies - further away from him, so he can strike at range. Icy Ray makes it harder for enemies to get close, and Magic Missile ensures he can strike even at long distances (though in and on itself, it doesn#t offer much control).

Not all role abilities lie in your class features.

 

[drothgery]

I bet Shugenja and Wu-Jen is Elemental though.

My prediction? PH3 has 4 Ki, 2 psionic, and 2 elemental.
Monk and Ninja - Striker
Samurai - Defender
??? - Leader

Then elemental leaders and controllers
and psionic leader and controllers?

I doubt I'm guessing correctly on this, but how about breaking out the rest of the 'most wanted' list in PHB3, with 2 ki, 3 psionic, 3 shadow (down with needless symetry!)

ki striker - monk
ki defender - samurai
psi striker - soulknife
psi leader - telepath
psi controller - psion
shadow striker - shadowdancer
shadow leader - necromancer
shadow controller - illusionist

 

[Squizzle]

I've become increasingly of the mind that PHB3 and PHB4 will be two-source books, so that each source gets a full four classes necessary for a Power book, allowing WotC to do two Power books a year. I think ki and psionics are a good fit together, but both are so strongly anticipated that it'd be almost ridiculous to put them together when you could split them up and get two strong sellers instead of one very strong seller, plus the sales on whoever wants shadow and elemental. Since ki is confimed for PHB3, I am sadly assuming that psionics are pushed to PHB4.

 

[Plane Sailing]

If you look at the Fighters At-Will powers - which of them exactly are good controller powers?

One of the things which early design articles talked about was the desire to give each class features which allowed them to fulfil their roles no matter what powers they took.

They did this for Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock and Warlord.

They didn't do this for Wizard, which is a huge shame. It would probably dramatically reduce the level of 'problems' which many people see with the wizard.

Class features are what (should, and in every other case do) define your ability to fill your role. Powers can be taken to support the role or to lean out towards some other role - most classes have a secondary role in mind.

Cheers

 

[Remathilis]

One of the things which early design articles talked about was the desire to give each class features which allowed them to fulfil their roles no matter what powers they took.

They did this for Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock and Warlord.

They didn't do this for Wizard, which is a huge shame. It would probably dramatically reduce the level of 'problems' which many people see with the wizard.

Class features are what (should, and in every other case do) define your ability to fill your role. Powers can be taken to support the role or to lean out towards some other role - most classes have a secondary role in mind.

Cheers

I STILL say that has a lot to do with wizard "orders" being scrapped late in the game to avoid Golden Wyvern Adepts and Emerald Frost Orb-users. I bet dollars to donuts that if we could see the 2007 version of the wizard class, we'd see a lot different class...

 

[TwinBahamut]

In practice I think it does - I've been calling the fighter a 'martial controller' for a long time now - because more than any other class it dictates what the bad guys can and cannot do during a fight. The fighters stickyness is like superglue - very hard for enemies to get detached and go and do what they want to do. Bad enough in open ground, in dungeon settings the fighter has a 'zone of control' that allows THEM to determine what options the other guys have.

Controlling the battlefield? They do it all day, every day, without using any powers - just their class features.

(nb, I wonder what degree of 'control' wizards can manage without using any powers and only relying on their class features...)

Cheers

What you describe is the reason Fighters are very good Defenders, and has nothing to do with them being Controllers. There is some overlap between the two (I have always seen both as the defensive roles), but creating a singular zone of stickiness is not the same thing as being a controller. In my opinion, the job of the Controller is to move enemies into the zone of stickiness and to tie down or defeat enemies outside of the zone of stickiness, not the create the zone of stickiness themselves. Defender and Controller are supposed to be synergistic, not interchangeable, after all.

 

[Cadfan]

One of the things which early design articles talked about was the desire to give each class features which allowed them to fulfil their roles no matter what powers they took.

They did this for Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock and Warlord.

They didn't do this for Wizard, which is a huge shame. It would probably dramatically reduce the level of 'problems' which many people see with the wizard.

Class features are what (should, and in every other case do) define your ability to fill your role. Powers can be taken to support the role or to lean out towards some other role - most classes have a secondary role in mind.

Cheers

I agree that this would solve a lot of problems that people feel the class has, but I disagree that its necessary. If the power list does the job, then the power list does the job.

That being said, maybe it is necessary just to satisfy the low grade OCD that some gamers seem to suffer from. Go to the WOTC forums some time. There's a guy there who keeps analyzing and reanalyzing the controllers, trying to find the one component part that makes them a controller. He's worked it down through several multi-page posts, finally landing on "possesses an at will area burst 1 power." Its the only thing that is 100% universal with controllers and 0% represented in non controllers. If wizards had a class feature that was obviously control, this guy could take his powers and devote them to curing cancer.

 

[Fifth Element]

I STILL say that has a lot to do with wizard "orders" being scrapped late in the game to avoid Golden Wyvern Adepts and Emerald Frost Orb-users. I bet dollars to donuts that if we could see the 2007 version of the wizard class, we'd see a lot different class...

You're probably right. The nerdrage probably cost us some good stuff there.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You're probably right. The nerdrage probably cost us some good stuff there.

I bet the nerdrage has cost us a lot of good stuff... not only the wizard...

I also beieve the skill challenge system suffered under the nerdrage... allowing the player to decide how hard the challenge will be like at DDXP was ingenious...
the paladin mark also suffered a bit i believe... it went from slightly abusable to a lot less efficient...