Diminishing Returns on Hero Powers?

[Elric]

Ok, let's consider a Fighter at level 12. He takes either: 2 levels of Fighter or 2 of Hero.

If he takes the levels of Hero, he uses his points to get the following abilities:
3: +2 Con (+14 HP and +1 Fort)
6: 3 feats
6: +4 Str (magical)
1: Increase Reach (Magical)
and has +1 BaB and 5 HP from levels

If he takes the levels of Fighter, he gets
1 feat
11 HP from levels
+2 BaB
4+ 2* Int skill points
+1 Fort save

In return for +1 BaB and skill points, the Hero gets 8 HP, +4 Str (so, +2 to attack and +3 to damage with a two handed weapon), Increased Reach (magical, but this is still an incredible ability) and 2 feats.

 

[RangerWickett]

Ok, let's consider a Fighter at level 12. He takes either: 2 levels of Fighter or 2 of Hero.

In return for +1 BaB and skill points, the Hero gets 8 HP, +4 Str (so, +2 to attack and +3 to damage with a two handed weapon), Increased Reach (magical, but this is still an incredible ability) and 2 feats.

A good reason why we'll be revising stuff. The mechanical abilities are a little hard to balance in all situations (especially at higher levels), but you're right, that is off.

 

[Elric]

I agree- some abilities are very hard to balance. Really useful abilities have the "Boots of S&S" problem. That problem is that when your character has 5000 gold, Boots of S&S at 2.5k look expensive so only some people will have them. When you have 35000 gold, those boots look really cheap and everyone will have them. For example, increased reach is so useful that almost every melee character will have it after taking one level of hero, since it is only 1/4th of your HrP from that level.

Also, the Hero's poor hit dice gets less important when you are high level and can increase your Con score for 3 HrP to get a dozen hit points.

 

[reapersaurus]

A good reason why we'll be revising stuff. The mechanical abilities are a little hard to balance in all situations (especially at higher levels), but you're right, that is off.

PLEASE.

Do NOT revise thigs because they are not "balanced" with the 3E core rules.

That is defeating the purpose, in my eyes, of an ALTERNATE book (and system).

DM's can choose to keep the (boring) old classes from the core books and keep their boring, slow advancement rates.

Or, they can CHOOSE to use your great system, which is balanced within itself.
I doubt if people are contemplating using FCtF if they are worried about comparing 2 levels of fighter with 2 levels of Hero.

Remember, RW, you guys assumed people would be sprinkling Hero classes in with normal classes. Don't turn back now, because the Hero classes give more of a benefit than the normal levels.
I THOUGHT that was the point of the system... super-powers, right?

If you want to limit the Hero class's impact, than don't give any hit points with Hero levels, or don't add any CON bonus hit points to Hero levels.

 

[Morrus]

PLEASE.

Do NOT revise thigs because they are not "balanced" with the 3E core rules.

That is defeating the purpose, in my eyes, of an ALTERNATE book (and system).

DM's can choose to keep the (boring) old classes from the core books and keep their boring, slow advancement rates.

Or, they can CHOOSE to use your great system, which is balanced within itself.
I doubt if people are contemplating using FCtF if they are worried about comparing 2 levels of fighter with 2 levels of Hero.

Remember, RW, you guys assumed people would be sprinkling Hero classes in with normal classes. Don't turn back now, because the Hero classes give more of a benefit than the normal levels.
I THOUGHT that was the point of the system... super-powers, right?

If you want to limit the Hero class's impact, than don't give any hit points with Hero levels, or don't add any CON bonus hit points to Hero levels.

I think you may have misunderstood our intentions with the book. Unlike all the other D20 superhero games, 4C2F is the one which is designed specifically to be used with and balanced with other D20 games. The Hero class is carefully designed to be balanced with the core classes so as to make it possible to mix and match; it is certainly not intended to be better than any other class.

 

[reapersaurus]

I really don't know how better to get this across, Morrus, but to say that IF that was the base intention, you failed.

I'm sure any non-spellcasting character would be made more powerful by 2 levels of Hero than 2 levels of any other class.
Just a couple examples would prove that pretty quick.

Again, _I_ don't see that as a problem - in fact, I think that's the allure (and draw) of the system.

After dealing with the system and examples as much as you guys have, are you really of the collective opinion that a Ftr6/Hero2 is the same power-level as a Ftr8?

This post is meant in the constructive-criticism vein...

 

[RangerWickett]

Nope, it ain't quite balanced yet, especially if you try to take full advantage of the system. Gaining flight and some damage reduction for your Fighter 6/Hero 2 is what we had more in mind, but if you decide to just take Heightened Strength, Heightened Accuracy, Heightened Constitutition, and Increased Reach, yes, it is almost certainly overpowered. Which is what we're trying to fix. We don't want to make superpowers necessary to have a fighting chance.

Also, if you take some of the powers (intended more for a modern-style supers game with guns and helicopters) and put them in a fantasy game with more melee combat, the melee powers are underpriced. Which is why we're going to be presenting two different sets of costs when powers would be of different values in the two different types of games.

But now, back to final proofreading on The Elements of Magic.

 

[MDSnowman]

Also, if you take some of the powers (intended more for a modern-style supers game with guns and helicopters) and put them in a fantasy game with more melee combat, the melee powers are underpriced. Which is why we're going to be presenting two different sets of costs when powers would be of different values in the two different types of games.

I can especially see this in a D20 Modern game. As you can use the Hero Class to, in effect, create personalized advanced classes from the ground up. No one wants to be a Strong Hero 10/ Tough Hero 10.

 

[Alzrius]

I wanted to ask: I'm pretty sure this has been asked before, but for the life ofme I can't find where, so I'm asking again: in FCTF, neither the Hero class nor the Specialist gain iterative attacks at higher levels (i.e. BAB +6 instead of +6/+1). Is this intentional, or an oversight?

 

[RangerWickett]

Oh, that was, I suppose, an oversight. You always gain iterative attacks when your attack bonus goes up, so we didn't spell it out. It's the same way how on prestige classes you'll never see the iterative attacks spelled out, since we figure it's obvious that for every 5 points of BAB above +1 you get an extra attack.