Diplomancer (Updated!)

Nifft

Penguin Herder
I liked the idea of Monte Cook's Diplomancer PrC (presented in the Book of Eldrich Might 2), but I disliked the mechanics. So, here's my version, updated for 3.5e, presented for your perusal and comments.

EDIT: Updated version now lower in the thread!
 
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Hm, why on earth would you ever take sorcerer levels again if this prc is available? I think it needs something to tone it down a little. As it stands, he gets the equivalent of more than three feats (spell focus/gsf in slightly over a school, +2 to ALL cha checks- better than a +2/+2 feat, and a +2 bonus to cha. Maybe take away a caster level or two in there somewhere or something.
 

the Jester said:
Hm, why on earth would you ever take sorcerer levels again if this prc is available? I think it needs something to tone it down a little. As it stands, he gets the equivalent of more than three feats (spell focus/gsf in slightly over a school, +2 to ALL cha checks- better than a +2/+2 feat, and a +2 bonus to cha. Maybe take away a caster level or two in there somewhere or something.

Sorcerers can't meet the skill requirements without either:
a) multiclassing; or
b) spending 32 cross-class skill points (for Diplomacy & Sense Motive), and starting the PrC after 16th level.

Since Sorcerers have very few Feats & Skill Points, I think it's a decent trade-off.

The Sorcerer in my campaign for whom the PrC was designed already took a level of Rogue to get some decent "Face" skills. He's going to have to take another level of Rogue to qualify for Diplomancer.

Given that, and given that losing more than two caster levels prevents non-Epic Sorcerers from ever seeing 9th level spells, I'm not sure if removing even one spellcaster level is fair & balanced.

I don't see the benefits being that much better than those of the Loremaster, who gains 5 free Feats (Secrets), Bardic Knowlege, free unlimited Identify, and two extra languages.

-- Nifft
 

Nifft said:


Sorcerers can't meet the skill requirements without either:
a) multiclassing; or
b) spending 32 cross-class skill points (for Diplomacy & Sense Motive), and starting the PrC after 16th level.

Since Sorcerers have very few Feats & Skill Points, I think it's a decent trade-off.

The Sorcerer in my campaign for whom the PrC was designed already took a level of Rogue to get some decent "Face" skills. He's going to have to take another level of Rogue to qualify for Diplomancer.

Given that, and given that losing more than two caster levels prevents non-Epic Sorcerers from ever seeing 9th level spells, I'm not sure if removing even one spellcaster level is fair & balanced.

I don't see the benefits being that much better than those of the Loremaster, who gains 5 free Feats (Secrets), Bardic Knowlege, free unlimited Identify, and two extra languages.

-- Nifft

I also have a problem with the loremaster, for the same reason; in fact there are very few caster prcs that give spellcasting at every level that I'm happy with.

Anyhow, you're right that it would take a while to get the prereqs as a straight sorc, but even one level of rogue makes it much easier.

Just seems like you get an awful lot out of this one. :)
 

Personally I wouldnt give spellcasting for the last level. Sorcerors gain +2 Cha which means their DCs improve by 1, and they may gain bonus spells AND they get a +1 bonus to Mind-Affecting DCs. Couple that with spellcasting and it seems like that level in particular is too much.

Also the class should gain Attractiveness before Slippery Mind, as they are totally different power-wise (Attractiveness is about a feat's worth of power, whereas Slippery Mind is a 10+ rogue special ability, and one of their best).

Finally I can't see a reason for this class to have Listen and Spot as class skills, but I admit I am not familiar with Monte's version.

Technik
 

When I design PrCs, I try to make the last level the "crown jewel" -- something really good to aim for, even if all the other abilities are just "flavor".

I'd rather throw on another constraint -- say, you must know at least one Enchantment spell at each level, forever -- than lessen the powerful 10th level.

-- Nifft
 

Here's the skill list for Monte's Diplomancer PrC:

Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Innuendo (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Scry (Int), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).

I removed Search, Hide, and Decipher Script. 3.5e removed Innuendo and Scry.

The reason is presumably because diplomats frequently double as spies. IMHO a Diplomancer has magic enough to hid his own activities, but it never hurts to be aware of what others might be doing.

-- Nifft
 

When I design PrCs, I try to make the last level the "crown jewel" -- something really good to aim for, even if all the other abilities are just "flavor".

No offense, but a lot of your abilities are more than just "flavor", in fact the only one that is pure flavor is Attractiveness.

The fact of the matter is that if the sorceror gets bonus class skills from his DM, or uses non-core feats to gain certain skills as class skills, the sorceror can enter this class and outclass a regular sorceror in nearly every regard.

I find prerequisites to be a good limiting factor on prcs, limiting in that it prevents just anyone from taking them and it reveals the focus of the class immediately. A bard would have to spend some skills on good "spy" skills, take the "spy" negotiator feat, and then pick up one of 3 skills to get in. In other words, its a cake-walk for a bard, relatively speaking, whereas for the sorceror it is a royal pain.

A sorceror in the realms could take Cosmopolitan twice, and Negotiator once and spend a large number of skill points to get into this class, but could qualify by 6th level (Human Sorceror, Cosmo+Cosmo at 1st, Negotiator at 3rd, Spell Focus (Enchantment) at 6th). At that point it doesnt matter what the PC has given up because the next 10 levels are severely better than what they gave up. Picking up GSF (Enchantment) at 9th and riding this prc out gives the sorceror +3 DCs to all enchantments, +6 DCs to all mind-affecting enchantments vice a regualr sorceror. Also, quickening a 4th level enchantment is akin to turning a 4th level slot into an 8th level slot, and at 5 times per day that will see a LOT of use (abuse?). I mean tossing a quickened Crushing Despair before whatever other spell you are going to cast, for a sorceror or bard (who can't normally quicken), 5 times per day, at a DC at least +4 higher than a sorceror who took SF and GSF (Enchantment) - thats HUGE. Our human sorceror would also gain 2 sp/diplomancer level, the only thing missing (from almost all prcs) is the familiar progresison.

Granted, the sorceror in question gave up 2 feats (1st level feats) to pull it off, but as its possible such a sorceror would easily be a higher CR if an opponent, or in a party would outclass EVERYONE in social situations.

I think the prc needs to be reworked so great gains aren't balanced by steep prcs (for sorc only!). In this day and age I think something like Spellpower +1 (Enchantments only) would be better than something like Cloud Mind.

Technik
 

I'm going to ignore the part about the Realms -- my group doesn't play there, and they have their own problems besides Cosmopolitan.


Technik4 said:
Also, quickening a 4th level enchantment is akin to turning a 4th level slot into an 8th level slot, and at 5 times per day that will see a LOT of use (abuse?).

It still USES an 8th level slot -- it just doesn't take a full-round action. I should make that more clear. For Bards, I don't really know what to do about 3rd and 4th level Quickening... I was thinking that, since they got in free, they'd just get less out of the class.


Granted, the sorceror in question gave up 2 feats (1st level feats) to pull it off, but as its possible such a sorceror would easily be a higher CR if an opponent, or in a party would outclass EVERYONE in social situations.

This class is meant to outclass others in social situations. :) We don't complain that the Shadowdancer outclasses others in sneaking situations...


I think the prc needs to be reworked so great gains aren't balanced by steep prcs (for sorc only!). In this day and age I think something like Spellpower +1 (Enchantments only) would be better than something like Cloud Mind.

Spellpower (Enchantments) +N works for me. Hmmmm.... I may want to shift some of these power-up things to Divinations (specifically the Detect spells).

-- Nifft
 

Updated Version!

Diplomancer Variant

Role: Specialist Bard or Sorcerer.

Prerequisites:
- Skills: 8 ranks each Diplomacy, Bluff & Sense Motive
- Feats: Negotiator, Spell Focus (Enchantment)
- Spells: Must be able to spontaneously cast Detect Thoughts
- Spells: Must be able to spontaneously cast any of: Charm Monster, Suggestion, Symbol of Persuasion


Class Benefits:
- HD: d4
- BAB: Poor (as Sorcerer)
- Good Save: Will / Bad Saves: Fortitude, Reflex
- Skill Points: 4 + Int bonus
- Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowlege (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis)


Code:
[color=lightblue][u]Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Spellcasting	Special Abilities[/u]
 1	+0	+0	+0	+2	--		Quicken Enchantment (0th level) 2/day
 2	+1	+0	+0	+3	+1 Level	Cloud Mind +1
 3	+1	+1	+1	+3	+1 Level	Quicken Enchantment (1st level) 2/day
 4	+2	+1	+1	+4	+1 Level	Attractiveness
 5	+2	+1	+1	+4	+1 Level	Quicken Enchantment (2nd level) 3/day
 6	+3	+2	+2	+5	+1 Level	Cloud Mind +2
 7	+3	+2	+2	+5	+1 Level	Quicken Enchantment (3rd level) 3/day
 8	+4	+2	+2	+6	+1 Level	Slippery Mind
 9	+4	+3	+3	+6	+1 Level	Quicken Enchantment (4th level) 4/day
10      +5	+3	+3	+7	+1 Level	Cloud Mind +3, Ability Increase (+2 Charisma)[/color]

Special Abilities:
  • Quicken Enchantment (Su): Starting at 1st level, the Diplomancer can cast a 0-level Enchantment spell as a Quickened action once per day. As the character gains new Diplomancer levels, she is able to Quicken higher level spells, and do so more often, as indicated. The Quickened spell does not use a higher spell-slot (as though the caster were using a Rod of Metamagic (Quicken)).
  • Cloud Mind (Su): The Diplomancer casts all Enchantment as though she were higher level, as indicated. This caster level bonus applies to all level-dependant variables and caster level checks. This ability stacks with the Archmage's Spell Power ability.
  • Attractiveness (Su): The character gains a +2 Circumstance bonus on all Charisma-based skill checks relating to members of her own species.
  • Slippery Mind (Ex): If the Diplomancer is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.
  • Ability Increase (Ex): The Diplomancer gains a total of +2 Charisma. This bonus is gained as if through level advancement.

-- Nifft
 
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