Disable device - making it "more fun-er-er"

[Nail]

Neatly written, Slobber Monster.

 

[mvincent]

without time pressure Searching just isn't likely to require die rolling or induce much excitement.

Note that I routinely expect search checks to be just out of reach of the best searchers take 10, and so (as a PC) I always ensure that someone aiding them (and you cannot take 10 on aiding someone, so a roll is usually needed).

As a DM, I've noticed that this occured surprisingly often with set DC's in (easy) pre-made adventures. The party missed a lot of loot by taking 10 unaided (and they are already paranoid enough about time not to spend it taking 20 on everything).

Also, taking 10 on disable device is still cause for tension (as the rogue, or designated door opener, can certainly still get fried afterwards if he is not good enough). The party is now training one of the PC's in disable device in order to use aid another on the rogue.

 

[Slobber Monster]

I find the Disable Device skill to be kind of boring, to be honest. I'd like to do away with it entirely. Here's how it would work.

If there's a built-in way of bypassing the trap, then you'd find it on a Search check. Like, if there's a drawer that shoots poison bolts at anyone who opens it unless you press a hidden latch at the same time, then you'd find the latch on the search check. (You'd also find the hole the darts shoot out of, so you could plug that up if you want to.)

If there's not a built-in way of bypassing the trap, then the DM just describes it and lets the players figure out how they want to bypass it. "Okay, so your Search check reveals the entire bridge has been rigged to collapse if anyone gets on it. There's no switch or anything. Apparently the beholders float across, and their slaves never come this way."

Or they can walk around the pit trap, or not step on the stones that will trigger the axe pendulum.

I don't see what value Disable Device adds to the game. 9 times out of 10, I can't even picture in my head exactly what the rogue is doing to disable the device.

I usually imagine Disable Device is something along the lines of "jam a coin under the edge of the pressure plate so it won't activate" or "remove a gear from the wall scythe's turning mechanism", or "smudge out this magic rune to change its meaning and dissolve the spell".

By the RAW it operates at a similar level of abstraction as the melee combat rules - i.e. the character is presumed to know a bunch of stuff that I as a player have no clue about. Just like a high level duelist knows a bunch of fencing moves whose name or purpose I couildn't even begin to conjure, a skilled Disable Device user knows how to make mechanical devices stop working given access to only a small portion of their exterior.

I do agree that traps can be one of the less fun elements in the game. The standard sequence for a BTB trap goes like this in my experience: rogue finds the trap after taking 20 on Search, the group decides it's worth the bother disarming, everyone but the rogue clears out of the area, and finally the rogue either makes the Disable Device check or gets nailed by the trap.

 

[Nail]

The standard sequence for a BTB trap goes like this in my experience: rogue finds the trap after taking 20 on Search, the group decides it's worth the bother disarming, everyone but the rogue clears out of the area, and finally the rogue either makes the Disable Device check or gets nailed by the trap.

I've played many published adventures, levels 1 thru 23.....and that's exactly how all the traps in all of those adventures played out.

By level 21, it was getting abbreviated to the phrase "Standard Operating Procedure", directed at the DM. The only die roll necessary was the Disable Device.

 

[Slobber Monster]

I've played many published adventures, levels 1 thru 23.....and that's exactly how all the traps in all of those adventures played out.

By level 21, it was getting abbreviated to the phrase "Standard Operating Procedure", directed at the DM. The only die roll necessary was the Disable Device.

Ugh. I think this is a problem moreso of adventure design than rules mechanics. There are a few ways to spice things up every now and then with traps:

- Time pressure. If you're chasing someone then the rest of the group doesn't have time to clear the corridor before the rogue goes to work.

- Combine traps with monsters. "Goblins - charge! Woops, they're standing on the other side of a row of camoflauged spiked pits!"

- Separate the trigger from the trap. "Your Search reveals a pressure plate in the floor which you think triggers something in the ceiling, which is 40 ft. up. Hard to say what it'll do if you accidentally trigger it without climbing up there to look."

- Make the trap's operation a necessary part of a mechanical puzzle. "Once the room is completely filled with water the fish statue's mouth will open revealing a descending staircase."

 

[Nail]

Good ideas.

Published adventures do combine traps with monsters. But these fall into 2 predictable categories:

• Traps as barriers: Often, the traps hinder the monsters as much or more so than they hinder a patient party of PCs. Note the word "patient".
• Traps as extra damage: "Yup, that fire trap in front of the mage sure did hurt....now can I lop his head off?" This type just increases the EL of the encounter, and there was never any intention of allowing a Rogue to disable anyway so...feh.

Separating the trigger from the trap doesn't work, BTW. Traps are defined as having a trigger; thus you can search for the trigger, and disable it. There is no need to reach the damaging part of the trap to disable the trap.

 

[penance]

I think he was trying to show a way that the PC's wouldnt be able to tell what 'exactly' the trap did, and so would have to make a choice between ignoring it and disabling it. That would make it a little more livley than 'ok, DM, just do what we always do.'

*shrugs*


nice thread here, btw.

 

[Slobber Monster]

I think he was trying to show a way that the PC's wouldnt be able to tell what 'exactly' the trap did, and so would have to make a choice between ignoring it and disabling it. That would make it a little more livley than 'ok, DM, just do what we always do.'

That's right - guess I should have been clearer on that one. Maybe stone blocks will fall from the ceiling or maybe poison gas will fill this chamber and the one next to it. So without knowing for sure, where should the other PC's wait while the rogue tries to disable it? Should the rogue bother to climb or fly up there to make sure? The point isn't to set up a guaranteed "haha - you're screwed!" situation, but to add some additional decisions that the group has to make.

 

[Wraith Form]

If the adventure is designed by the DM to have a few wandering monsters or time pressures, fine. If not, let the Rogue Take 20 all s/he wants.

I had a good chuckle about the first (DM to Player) dialogue. Luckily, that's not my situation!

I actually intend to have an entire crew of undead pirates wandering around the pirate's base, so the above is not an issue. Despite being a n00b, I'm very aware that "respawning" villains is no fun, nor is it realistic, so that won't be happening--have no fear!

Thanks for the many replies!

 

[Wraith Form]

Hope they have spells to do that with. That or they have Improved Unarmed Strike or improvised weapons available. Undead are not subject to non-lethal damage which is what unarmed, unarmored characters are limited to without those other conditions.

Here's the sitation: My players've been stranded on an uncharted island, kidnapped by a pirate revenant ("Jack Sparrow" for simplicity' sake) and his undead crew that is pissed at Our Heroes--they stole a McGuffin from Jack, and he wants it back. He's bringing the McGuffin to his "boss," a ghost pirate captain, anchored to the island (no pun intended), that provided Jack Sparrow with advice. (Jack wasn't a very experienced pirate in life.) In return for advice, Sparrow had been searching for the McGuffin that the PCs managed to nab from him.

So, Sparrow (as revenant) and his undead crew knocked them out (non-lethal damage) and brought them to this island, where Sparrow keeps his booty in cliffside caves, accessed by stairs carved into the rock. The caves are riddled with piratical traps to prevent anyone from stealing his booty. The McGuffin will complete a Bad Artifact that will do Something Awful to the Flanaess, which is what the ghostly pirate "boss" wants.

Stripped of gear & weapons, they've managed to slip out of Sparrow's boat and onto the shore of the island. (Queue LOST theme here.) That's where next week's adventure begins.

Yes, the wizard has a few spells memorized.

Aslo, they'll have to use improvised weapons. Or they'll have to steal weapons. Or the 18 STR fighter will have to arm-wrestle a sword from an undead pirate.

....Or, if they're smart, they'll have to collapse part of the caves the undead pirates are in.

Their gear is stashed within the caves, so once they have their gear the situation will change.

And yeah, my players' characters just turned second level.

I never said it'd be easy...

(Do I qualify for rat-bastard DM-dom yet?)