Disappointed wit Vampires and Deathknights

[hong]

Only if you think too hard about fantasy.

No, only by thinking too hard about fantasy can you construct the necessary machinery by which to make sense of a deathknight with fireball and wall of ice. Thus, said deathknight is dumb.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I wonder how easy or practical it will be to re-include multi-role creatures into D&D

From what I've seen, very.

The key is in the special abilities. There are guidelines on how many abilities to give monsters, but those guidelines are mostly there for your own sanity. Having a villain with 37 unique abilities to choose from every single round is mind-numbing. Keeping him down to 5 or less, a couple of them either per encounter or recharge, really simplifies your life.
However, if you're willing to build a villain that has more abilities, or abilities that fill several roles, then there's nothing I've seen to stop you. And that includes the entire Creating Monsters entry in the DMG.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Probably better to build a variant monster for each role.

So if you want a fireball hurling Deathknight, build it as an archer who shoots arrows which erupt "with necrotic flame" where they hit.

Although that is possible, I *like* the idea of monsters which fulfil more than one role by themselves. I *like* the fighting deathknight who can also hurl fireballs. I'd like to be able to arrange some fights where instead of being pitted against 1 soldier and 1 controller, you have 2 soldier/controllers who can act in either role.

 

[Lizard]

No, only by thinking too hard about fantasy can you construct the necessary machinery by which to make sense of a deathknight with fireball and wall of ice. Thus, said deathknight is dumb.

And six foot floating spheres covered with magic eyes are....?

 

[Lizard]

Although that is possible, I *like* the idea of monsters which fulfil more than one role by themselves. I *like* the fighting deathknight who can also hurl fireballs. I'd like to be able to arrange some fights where instead of being pitted against 1 soldier and 1 controller, you have 2 soldier/controllers who can act in either role.

No reason why not. It's another thing I like in 4e -- the Standard/Elite/Solo scaling within the same power level. Again, something I was very skeptical about until I played it and understood how it works.

So a soldier/artillery would be elite, or even solo. You can pretty much fill out the entire spectrum -- have lesser knights, pages, and squires animated as weak spirits (minions), have a few different undead fighter types with magical enhancements (standard), and have a commander with powerful ranged and melee attacks (elite).

 

[Gort]

To be fair, it's not like giving a deathknight a bunch of powers from another monster would be a problem if you want an "unroled" deathknight. Economy of actions will see to it that it won't be overpowered or whatever - any round he's throwing a fireball is a round he isn't locking party members into a hand-to-hand fight with him.

Likewise, there's nothing wrong with letting your vampire shapeshift into a wolf or swarm of bats. Just wing it - give him the wolf's run speed and keep everything else the same, or make the bat swarm power like a short range teleport.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

The new Death Knight is much improved. He has more coherent and thematically sound abilities. He's very cool, IMO. Good riddance, out-of the-blue fireball, make room for unholy flame.

The Vampire Lord is more of a Vampire period. It is visibly a template that can be assigned to a base class as is evident from the fact that his vampire is a rogue. The vampie could have gotten more love from the base MM but the one we got in functional enough for the moment.

 

[keterys]

Or just add the Wizard template. Poof, Wall of Ice and Fireball, whee

 

[Hawken]

Yeah, but he's meant to be a soldier rather than artillery. His job is to lock people down on him and dish out damage rather than stand in the back and lob out damage at a distance.

This is just an opinion. Deathknights may have been built into 4e as soldiers, but in previous editions, the last thing they could be equated to were soldiers.

The DK "job" is not to lock anyone down, but to KILL things. Fighters lock things down, maybe clerics and paladins too. But the DK was designed to slaughter. And with a 1/day fireball, that's hardly sitting back and lobbing as a "job".

I would suggest that the old Deathknight was poorly conceived, and has now been brought into line and improved.

Well, it was so "poorly conceived" that it survived 4 editions of D&D! However, with so many powers being downgraded or dropped, I can't really call it an improvement, though I would have to agree that it has been brought "in line" with 4e.

There was never really a good reason why a Daethknight, a soldier basically, was lobbing fireballs. It seems incongruous in retrospect.

A deathknight with fireball and wall of ice is dumb. If 4E removes fireballs and walls of ice, then this is good.

DKs were never really soldiers. They were knights, shock troops, cavalry, commanders, reinforcements in life. They were always a step above "soldiers". And being created by deities or demons, they were given powers that few mortals or undead possess. That hardly seems incongruous.

Being the only creatures (that easily come to mind) able to unleash a fireball with more than 15d6 damage, even just 1/day, was a devastating power meant to decimate a battlefield, or (considering their Magic Resistance or Spell Resistance) "bring the hammer down" on their own heads, severely punishing those strong enough to stand up to them. While their Wall of Ice power meant the ability to separate and isolate enemies (ala divide and conquer). Both powers had excellent tactical applications and being placed on an undead killing machine has always made perfect sense to me.

DKs don't need a "bunch" of powers. They've always had only a few anyway compared to high level spellcasters.

For the Fireball, make it like:
Daily
Standard Action
Area: Burst 5 within 40 squares
Damage: 4d6 Fire damage + 4d6 Divine damage plus ongoing 5 Fire and 5 Divine damage (save ends).
Miss: 2d6 Fire damage + 2d6 Divine damage plus ongoing 2 Fire and 2 Divine damage (save ends).

The Wall of Ice could be made into either an Encounter or At Will power.

Give them the effect of the Bodak's Death Gaze (same mechanics) as a Daily power to replace their Power Word Kill.

DKs are an easier fix than Vampire Lords.

 

[jeffhartsell]

Or just add the Wizard template. Poof, Wall of Ice and Fireball, whee

This. Now you have a solo badass that is both artillery and a solider.

Thunderwave, Combust, Stone Skin, and Wall of Ice added to a Death Knight is nasty.