Disappointed with Minis

[Fiery James]

I find the issue of randomized miniatures and 3.5 to be completely separate. The game works just as well with Fiery Dragon's counter collection, or even dice to represent your character. While there are some things I don't care for in the new edition, the miniatures are unrelated.

Buy tin!

This may not be the best time or appropriate place, but have I ever told you that I love you?

 

[KB9JMQ]

Incidentally, Rob Heinsoo has revealed that the Black Dragon of Dragoneye will be released in a non-random miniatures product in the near future; I think it is most likely to be the D&D Basic set.

Oooh, thanks for that tidbit MerricB

 

[3catcircus]

Ok this is just bull, my group has played dnd 3.0/3.5 since it began. We have always had a deep understanding of the combat system and rules, partly because at least half of us are rules lawyers (in a good way). We have never used a battle grid in all that time, well actualy thats not true because we tried it once. We found that the process was too much work to reproduce what we already knew. You do not need a grid or mini's to play dnd. Some people like it some people do not, occasionaly i have enjoyed the use of the grid, mostly for 15+ combatant type encounters, but let me say again...bull.

I have to respectfully disagree with at least part of your argument - in order to effectively and accurately use the 3.x rules, with the myriad of combat feats which are based on specific spatial positioning of the PCs and monsters, you *do* need something to illustrate this. It doesn't have to be a battlemat and mini's, as you state - it could be a sheet of paper with pencil marks or a laptop computer screen - but you really do need a much more accurate way of representing the tactical picture than just "in your head" and I would argue that it requires some type or measurement system - usually a grid, although a tape measure would work too.

 

[3catcircus]

I actually think they are great. I just bought a case of Dragon eye for MojoGM and we sat on the floor and opened the 16 packs that came in the case. We got almost all of this series, with a few exceptions, which will be picked up online as singles, or we'll use older pewter minis for those creatures if need be. Right now, in our games, we don't just use the new minis. We use a mix and we never painted our pewters. Yeah, they look better painted, but neither of us has the time or talent to paint them. I also use a lot of pewter fantasy figurines that were not really meant to be D&D minis.

I don't see how 3.5 assumes the use of minis. I'm sure you could play without them if it's that much of a hassle for you; or you could always use the older ones and just not paint them if that's not your cup of tea.

You have to realize that there are just some creatures that minis would never , ever get made for due to lack of demand were it not for the randomized packs. Someday you might be glad you have some of them. You never know.

Another thing to consider is trading some of your commons in for a rare on one of the sites that sells singles. Some of the commons may seem boring to you & me , but to someone who wants and army of 40 or so of the commons of one type, and has no need for a rare that has nothing to do with their game setting; they might be more than willing to trade.

I don't know. I guess I kind of understand the complaints about the randomness, but I personally think it's kind of fun.

The only problems with this are the following:

1. Not everyone can afford to spend $100+ on a whole case of mini's.

2. Trading commons for a rare is not really that feasible. Think about it - why would I trade a rare away if I can run down to the FLGS and just buy the commons in a pack, especially when I know how much effort it took for me to get the rare to begin with?

3. Trying to trade online? Caveat Emptor, especially with that Den of Thieves known as E-bay.

 

[3catcircus]

Harbinger just recently stopped production, and they have massive stocks of starter sets still in thier warehouses. Dragonseye is still selling out as soon as they are shipped. This is what I've gathered from looking over a bunch of websites. I don't think they will stop production of Dragonseye till Archfiends become the mainstay of sales. I probably should pick up some more Dragonseye while they are still around, but I'm waiting for another deal on a case (I won't pay more than $6 a pack for either set).

Archfiends should be hitting shelves in a week or two, I believe. Giants is still a month off at least.

And I have to agree with the rest of the people that preach, "DnD does not require minis, never has, hopefully never will." And I run one hell of a combat intensive session at times without them.

Edit: I went to go check a couple websites, and here is what one says:

- - Wizards of the Coast has SOLD OUT of Harbinger
and will not be making any more. - -

- - Wizards of the Coast has SOLD OUT of Entry Packs
but will supply more in June. - -

-- Wizards has announced that their re-shipment of Dragoneye has been delayed once again. We recently received a small shipment but are now being told that the next Dragoneye shipment will not arrive until May. As a result, we have decided to stop taking pre-orders on Dragoneye until April. --

- - Wizards has announced that Archfiends will be allocated when released. This means that we will not initially receive all of the product that we request. As usual, we will ship on a first-ordered, first-shipped basis. - -

- - The release of Archfiends will be 3/19/04. We have not been informed of our size of our allocated "first wave" of product. However, we've been told that the "second wave" will not arrive until April. - -

I'm kinda confused as to why the won't make more of the Harbinger boosters? For the price and for what you get, the Harbinger Entry pack is a rip-off.

 

[3catcircus]

Here's a little bit of information for everyone: Last year I started a poll here on ENworld, and another one on Dragonsfoot, asking people whether or not they used miniatures or tokens when playing D&D. Now, I'll point out that ENworld is primarily 3E and Dragonsfoot's primarily 1E, so there's a big divide in many opinions about how D&D should work.

The results for those polls? Nearly identical. Between 15% and 20% of players in D&D (any edition) use no tokens or miniatures - between 80% and 85% of people in both polls use miniatures or tokens.

Wow.

Add to that the "little detail" from the WotC survey that shows that people who use miniatures with their RPGs spend a huge amount more than people who don't, and you see why Wizards have taken the line they have.

I know I've spent about 1000 Austalian Dollars so far on these miniatures, which is more than I've spent in the past two years on RPG materials.

The silly thing is this: I don't normally use miniatures or tokens in my games. About one session in 20 uses them. I'm one of the 20% who normally runs things by ear. (However, I do play the Skirmish game, which I've found to be utterly excellent).

Of course, if you do normally use miniatures or tokens, should you buy the D&D Miniatures line?

My advice is to look carefully at the commons and uncommons in each set - especially the commons. Do you actually need them? (Because that's what you'll be getting lots of).

If you see a lot of figures you want, then that's a good set to get. If you're only interested in a couple of rares, then the odds are against you. Look for a non-random alternative.

The D&D Miniatures line works best for those who run a traditional wild & woolly D&D game. Where any sort of monster might be encountered - Kuo-Toa, Drow, Elementals, Dragons, Undead. Oh, and Orcs and Goblins. Each set has a different mix of figures - look at the set lists and see if you want figures from that set.

I know that, as a RPGer, I'm not that excited about Archfiends. The monster common list is as follows: Githzerai; Dread Guard; Duergar Warrior; Snig The Axe (a goblin); Zhentarim Fighter; Gravehound; Warrior Skeleton; Cultist Of The Dragon; Cursed Spirit; Gnoll Archer and Orc Raider. The only one there I'm really interested in is the Gnoll Archer. Because I'm going to be using the set for skirmishes as well, it doesn't bother me so much, though.

But I'm not everyone. I don't think Archfiends will do as well as Dragoneye, because it's more limited in its usefulness. It seems more aimed at the FR player and Skirmish player than the general D&D role-player. I may well be mistaken.

I'll leave you with this:

Merric's Law of Miniatures: Non-Random Packaging, Cheap Prices, and a Large Range of Figures: Choose two.

Cheers!

I look at it like this:

The Harbinger series was great if you want an Orc, Kobold, or Goblin horde (or a bunch of Half-Orc Assassins.) Forget it if you want a mindflayer or two, let alone some undead or a few trolls. After my 10th pack (remember the argument that it was estimated to take between 8 and 10 packs to complete the Harbinger series?) I still am missing about a dozen of them - all uncommons and rares, while I have 4 Nebins, 2 dozen orcs, goblins, and kobolds of various kinds, a fsck-ton of wolves, hyenas and skeletal wolves. And how about those human commoners? How many "grim reapers" does anyone need, unless they plan a static display of the local manor, with the field full of serfs during harvest season? I only recently got a Minotaur and that's about it. I don't have all of the iconics, I don't have all of the undead, and I don't have all of the rares or uncommons - and I've already bought about 12 boosters plus the entry set.

I'm missing the following: Axe Sister, Devis, Dire Boar, Evoker's Apprentice, Hound Archon, Human Blackguard, Large Fire Elemental, Mind Flayer, Owlbear, Sword of Heironeous, Troll, Vadania, Werewolf, Wight and Wraith.

On the Dragoneye series - I've started out ok (4 packs bought) - I do have the black dragon and the gargoyle. I've also got 2 Stonechildren, 4 Regdars, 3 Red Samurais, and 4 Abyssal Maws - really how many Abyssal gumballs do I need? I've done better with this series than the Harbingers - but I still predict getting screwed.

As far as archfiends - finally! some commons that I want - the Dalelands Militiamen look like they could be commoner footsoldiers in any North-western Faerunian army.

 

[Djeta Thernadier]

The only problems with this are the following:

1. Not everyone can afford to spend $100+ on a whole case of mini's.

2. Trading commons for a rare is not really that feasible. Think about it - why would I trade a rare away if I can run down to the FLGS and just buy the commons in a pack, especially when I know how much effort it took for me to get the rare to begin with?

3. Trying to trade online? Caveat Emptor, especially with that Den of Thieves known as E-bay.

Okay...

1. Granted not everyone can afford to spend the $$ on a case, but I think singles bought in store (like Reapers) add up after a while. But if you absolutely have no need for some of the commons, then this might be the better otion for you. We like to have a lot of minis, and a lot of stuff we never know when we'll need. If it's not something WoTC sees a demand for, we might not be able to find it otherwise. The way I see it, $129 for a case ($119 if you don't count the shipping cost) is around $1.00 per mini. MojoGM & I probably won't sell the ones we don't want, but say you wanted to do this...surely there are people on Ebay who'd buy them as a lot for more than a few $'s.

2. Trading commons for a rare. Or vice versa. I have noticed some rares we've gotten that we will likely never need. We probably won't be selling them but there are a lot of people who would rather have say, 5 orcs (commons) than one pick a random rare monster for a number of reasons and might be glad to trade. It might take a short while to find someone, but I don't think that is impossible. Perfect example is MojoGM & I got about 3 drunken masters in that case of 16 booster packs. We will likely never need them. I can think of a few commons that we'd rather have more of. Of course, we're hanging onto them...you just never know when they will come in handy.

3. Maybe you have had a bad time with Ebay. Others have not. I've never had a bad time with EBay, personally. I'm not sure if Gallo22's example was from Ebay but he said he paid $13 for a lot and got 20+ minis. But Ebay isn't really a trading site. When I say trade, I mean for FLGS that have trading things set up, like if you were to bring in a rare you would never need, and trade for a few commons, or bring in a bunch of commons and trade for a rare. Kind of like used cd stores....say you have a rare live recording of a band and you bring it in...they'll probably give you a higher amount in trade in value for it to pick out maybe 2 or 3 easy to find cds. Or vice versa.

 

[Djeta Thernadier]

Double post. Bah. :\

 

[Cerubus Dark]

I'm missing the following: Axe Sister, Devis, Dire Boar, Evoker's Apprentice, Hound Archon, Human Blackguard, Large Fire Elemental, Mind Flayer, Owlbear, Sword of Heironeous, Troll, Vadania, Werewolf, Wight and Wraith.

Oh oh, I can trade you the Blackguard, Werewolf and Mindflayer for Kobolds! Hehe, email me at cerubus@safe-mail.net and we can work out a deal

 

[diaglo]

my hat for the d02 minis know no limit.

i own 800 of the little blighters.

the random nature and the poor paint jobs plus the high price for frikcin plastic is just some of the downers for me.