Discussing 4e Subsystems: Elites, Solos, Minions, and Monster XP

[Tequila Sunrise]

XP: As I did in 3e, I assign XP based on when I want my PCs to level up, so I don't have strong feelings about monster XP one way or the other. It is a bit silly that PCs are still rewarded primarily for killing the biggest baddest foes they can find, but that's D&D for ya.

Elites: Love 'em! Easy to design, easy to use. Just double HP, double damage, add an AP and a save bonus, and they're ready to rumble.

Minions: Haven't seen them in high level play yet, but I like them so far. A simple fix for the auto-damage minion slaughters at high levels: make them immune to auto-damage, just as they are immune to miss damage.

Solos: I'm considering converting all solos in my game to elites. Creating solos can be very sketchy 'cause you can't just quintuple their damage output due to the risk of annihilating PCs one at a time. As already mentioned, solos also aren't as fun as elites. I ran a couple of 30th level playtests with Big Red...man, they were such long slugfests that I couldn't even finish them.

TS

 

[Jack99]

XP: As I did in 3e, I assign XP based on when I want my PCs to level up, so I don't have strong feelings about monster XP one way or the other. It is a bit silly that PCs are still rewarded primarily for killing the biggest baddest foes they can find, but that's D&D for ya.

Elites: Love 'em! Easy to design, easy to use. Just double HP, double damage, add an AP and a save bonus, and they're ready to rumble.

Minions: Haven't seen them in high level play yet, but I like them so far. A simple fix for the auto-damage minion slaughters at high levels: make them immune to auto-damage, just as they are immune to miss damage.

Solos: I'm considering converting all solos in my game to elites. Creating solos can be very sketchy 'cause you can't just quintuple their damage output due to the risk of annihilating PCs one at a time. As already mentioned, solos also aren't as fun as elites. I ran a couple of 30th level playtests with Big Red...man, they were such long slugfests that I couldn't even finish them.

TS

I have been considering a compromise, if you will. Instead of 5x hp solos, they will only have 3x hp. Should be enough to create creatures that last, while still being able to use them in fights without creating slug-fests. But so far, it's purely theoretical, I haven't used a single solo since the beta, where the black dragon raped a pre-gen party of 6 or 7.

I also want to note that PS had a great point, regarding solos and fighters. If you come up with something, make sure to post it, PS.

Cheers

 

[Plane Sailing]

I also want to note that PS had a great point, regarding solos and fighters. If you come up with something, make sure to post it, PS.

Some solos have powers which enable them to cope with it to a certain extent - the last solo I used was a young green dragon which had a minor action gaze attack vs Will which can slide a target 2 squares. He could use this to disengage the fighter, allowing him to move and attack somewhere else.

The black dragon gets an immediate reaction tail slash which can attack someone that missed it and pushes 1 square.

Blue dragons have to wait until they are Elder (level 20) to get an at-will stunning thunderclap which would allow them to manouvre away.

Red dragon gets a tail swipe which can push 1 square, but it only happens when an enemy moves into a flanking position, so it isn't very reliable.

White dragon is like the blue - has to wait until level 17 elder white dragon to get a stunning attack which can be used more than once (Icy Tomb)

Purple worm? I suppose if it swallows someone they can't really stop it moving!

Shadow umber hulk has its maddening gaze

Beholder has powers that cause a fighter to move, so he's OK.

As does the gibbering orb.

Hydra doesn't seem to have any tricks it can use.

Primordial Naga has a minor action 'wind slam' that can slide targets.

So on balance, it seems that reviewing the whole MM most of the solos do, in fact, have a way of moving fighters away from them. Only a few don't, and some of them have to rely on particular triggering actions.

I guess that my experience (party levels 1-4) has only really met the lower end dragons which tend to have more difficulty in these circumstances.

Cheers

 

[Shroomy]

All I can say is that the fighter's lockdown ability isn't all bad when it comes to solos; if it wasn't for our fighter keeping a mightily peeved young black dragon locked down (for the most part), my artificer would have most likely ended up a bubbling pile of goo (it had a vendetta against my character).

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I have been considering a compromise, if you will. Instead of 5x hp solos, they will only have 3x hp.

That's what I would call a 'Rank 3' monster. Elites are meant to challenge 2 PCs, solos challenge 5; rank 3s challenge 3. I realize you're intending something slightly different then I am (a slightly squishier solo); I guess I'm just a stickler for guidelines.

I don't think defender lock-downs are bad; that is their job anyway, right? Besides, high level solos have such great stats compared to PCs they can take that measly -2 to attacks and still have good odds of hitting, and dodging an OA.

TS

 

[Ycore Rixle]

Actually I'd take this a step further and suggest that minions not only act differently in combat vs. outside combat, but also that they act differently against "Heroes" vs. "non heroes".

So for example, the Goblin Raiders who are terrorizing the townsfolk don't fall to a single slingstone from the guardsman but they would against the PC's because they are a cut above the average person. Conversely, the Captain of the Guard might be a "Hero" in his own right and treat the Goblin Raiders as the Minions that they are.

I would agree that this isn't entirely realistic (and sometimes I place a premium on realism) but it is very cinematic. I mean, how many movies have we seen where the thugs totally terrorize the common townsfolk but fall easily to the intrepid hero?

Oh yeah! This is just one of the ways that minions would have been better. It's great to have minions that get cut down by the heroes. It just needs to be done in a way that makes sense. SK has rules that allow minions to be cut down easily by skilled warriors but not easily by un-skilled warriors.

To me, it's perfectly self-consistent to say minions are slain quickly by heroes but not by non-heroes; that is in fact what makes the heroes Heroes. Just like Cadfan said, it's always the case that you can have some minion-types get killed quickly by PCs. It's fun, it's cinematic, it's dramatic.

The problem with 4e's minion rules is that everyone - including other minions - can kill minions just as easily as Heroes can. To me, that's not consistent with a world that has many minions in it (they'd all die from bumping their foreheads on the cave walls as toddler minions running through the Caves of Chaos).

 

[Fallen Seraph]

The problem with 4e's minion rules is that everyone - including other minions - can kill minions just as easily as Heroes can. To me, that's not consistent with a world that has many minions in it (they'd all die from bumping their foreheads on the cave walls as toddler minions running through the Caves of Chaos).

My view of HP (mainly for monsters/NPCs) is that it is a storytelling tool. So HP represents that in that period of time/circumstance the creature has that much likelihood of dying that quickly.

To give an example, during a sneak-mission if someone sneaks up on a guard that is asleep he is a minion. If he wakes up and attacks the PCs he has become a standard creature.

As such a minion-creature is just as likely in normal circumstances to die as any other creature. However in that specific time or circumstance he is the one who is more likely to die.

 

[Jack99]

That's what I would call a 'Rank 3' monster. Elites are meant to challenge 2 PCs, solos challenge 5; rank 3s challenge 3. I realize you're intending something slightly different then I am (a slightly squishier solo); I guess I'm just a stickler for guidelines.

I don't think defender lock-downs are bad; that is their job anyway, right? Besides, high level solos have such great stats compared to PCs they can take that measly -2 to attacks and still have good odds of hitting, and dodging an OA.

TS

Yeah, perhaps you are right. It's just a thought I have been toying with. As I mentioned earlier, I haven't used any solo's yet (my players are level 6) mostly because I want to reserve the solo status for truly exceptional monsters, like dragons. I did however have a poor experience during the beta, where the black dragon TPK'ed my group, but it took ages, and around round 4, it was clear that it would wipe them, and there was not much to do, except go through the motions for another 15 rounds or so.

I know it was a poorly conceived encounter, but in order to avoid such a combat in a the real campaign, I simply decided to wait a while, in order to (hopefully) understand the game better, and have some more time to tweak, if needed.

Which leads me to my comment about the fighter lockdown. As I haven't run solos, I can't say I have experienced the problem first hand, but it does seem to create a problem with melee elites, which I have used extensively. They get locked down early by the fighter, and from there, he just takes all the hits, which is like taking hits from two mobs every round. This creates a big need of healing for my fighters. In fact, the guy who plays a fighter often take an extremely high amount of damage. I know, I know, he is a defender, he is supposed to take damage, but it does seem.. what is the word? disproportional at times.

Cheers

 

[Shroomy]

They get locked down early by the fighter, and from there, he just takes all the hits, which is like taking hits from two mobs every round. This creates a big need of healing for my fighters. In fact, the guy who plays a fighter often take an extremely high amount of damage. I know, I know, he is a defender, he is supposed to take damage, but it does seem.. what is the word? disproportional at times.

Well, I think that is purely by design, given the fighter's hit point and healing surge totals he's supposed to take disproportionate damage. I know our fighter does, since my artificer has to heal him all the time.

 

[malraux]

Well, I think that is purely by design, given the fighter's hit point and healing surge totals he's supposed to take disproportionate damage. I know our fighter does, since my artificer has to heal him all the time.

In my game, when the fighter locks down the solo, he begins to affect its ability to act as multiple characters. Any immediate reaction that targets someone other than the fighter means the fighter gets a whack, or the paladin's mark does damage.