Discussing 4e Subsystems: POWERS!

[garyh]

In fact, there is little difference between a wizard, rogue, and fighter all striking with a weapon (barring strength score differences) which seems a bit of an oddity left over from the new resolution mechanic.

Fighters have the Fighter Weapon Talent (emphasizing 1H+shield or 2H), and Rogues have their Rogue Weapon Talent (emphasizing daggers and shuriken), while wizards have nothing of the sort. To me, that differentiates the three both mathematically and flavor-wise.

 

[RefinedBean]

Rather than the past where the players could come up with things on their own and you just needed to make a ruling on it at the moment, don't you feel like you may need to feed ideas of what things can be used for now that everything is so focused on specific things it can do?

Well, 4E is the only D&D edition I've ever seriously ran a game in. Every time I picked up the 3.X DMGs, the skin on my fingers would start to sizzle and pain would grip my entire being. So, I stayed away from 'em.

I find I don't have to feed my players much of anything. However, they're all experienced gamers, and after only a cursory mention that despite the powers being combat-focused, they can be used any time you want to use them, they've been going nuts with 'em. Scorching burst to light piles of tinder in case of a night-time ambush, Ethereal Striding through a stained glass window to fool a particularly religious clergy, stuff like that.

If a player doesn't want to be creative with their powers, that's their business. But so long as I appear and react as a fun and engaging DM who encourages cinematic RP and Power-utilization, it's all been gravy.

 

[Wild Gazebo]

Great post Stalker0!

Well, I think I'm fairly sympathetic to your thoughts--but I do have a fairly different practical experience.

In your example of 5th level fighter daily exploits, you surmise the superiority of Rain of Steel leads to the overwhelming choice of the power by players. I would probably surmise that the popularity of play style might have more to do with it. I can readily admit to choosing any of the powers depending on the character I have made.

If I were to create a powerhouse of a weapon-master dealing large amounts of fixed damage, mingled with average die rolls, I would take Crack the Shell. If I were to create a mobile fighter whose power and damage was dependant on controlling the field of battle (usually in tandem with another person) I would take Dizzying Blow. While if I was a slugger with a high AC who just needed to get the lead out on the damage front round by round I would take Rain of Steel.

So, I'm not terribly sure how solid the premise of maximum efficiency of power dictates player choice is.

I will say that I'm far more interested in the straightjacketting of classes into combat roles. I would have been far happier if the powers had rolled out so that each class could be created as a striker, controller, defender, or leader (I find healer doesn't fit well in this grouping). As is, if implemented, it would have really increased the number of powers needed per class--which isn't a very elegant solution.

It would have been very interesting if they had developed lists of powers under different headings such as martial, arcane, prayer, athletic, insight, perception…ect. And let each class choose a certain amount from certain groupings...effectively tailoring the character to the role they wish to play, with the style they enjoy, and through the method they choose.

I think this would also solve the perceived problem of repetitive player choice of powers...perhaps.

 

[Remathilis]

Fighters have the Fighter Weapon Talent (emphasizing 1H+shield or 2H), and Rogues have their Rogue Weapon Talent (emphasizing daggers and shuriken), while wizards have nothing of the sort. To me, that differentiates the three both mathematically and flavor-wise.

Flavor-wise, I agree. The game not-so-subtly pushes you toward certain weapons and armor for certain classes. That in-and-of itself is not a bad thing, as it makes classes feel different (and require different gear, unlike 3e's chainshirt/breastplate/fullplate problem)

However, if a rogue, wizard, and fighter, all with proficiency in the same weapon (all of them are eladrin, so they all have longswords) the difference is only the variance in Str score +1 (for the fighter wpn talent). This is a large deviation from the difference in Thac0 or Bab that existed previously. (Again, this was needed to give fighters combat superiority, something technically not needed in an era of fighter powers and class abilities.) The oddity comes in those weird corner cases (lets say our three eladrin all have the same str score, so the fighter is only +1 to hit better than the wizard when making an opportunity attack) though in play it typically seems much more varied (due to wizards having higher int and rogues higher dex, emphasizing those scores over str)

Its an odd side-effect of even-leveling progressions amongst all classes. I guess its good to get rid of that "pray for a 20" problem of earlier editions, but it does seem odd when you stop and think the wizard and fighter essentially have the same "base attack bonus" for their powers these days...

 

[Plane Sailing]

An aspect that you don't really touch on Stalker0, but is perhaps implicit in your discussion, is the apparent lack of guidelines for powers and levels.

With spells in 3e we had a pretty clear basic idea of the amount of damage appropriate to different spell levels, and a general idea of the appropriateness of effects from a long history of existing spells.

4e powers do seem to be all over the shop. As well as the wildly differing value of different powers at a given level, there are also some startling things that crop up when you look at powers which are almost identical but at different levels - e.g. the discussions on Cloudkill (19th) vs Stinking Cloud (5th), or Spiritual Weapon (5th) vs Mordenkainens Sword (9th). Nor does it seem to take into account the huge difference that weapon choice makes to W powers, compared to the fixed dice of the implement powers.

The conclusion that I've regrettably come to is that the developers didn't have a plan for the relative value of various effects, various damage levels, various durations and so on, and they just made it up as they went along, eyeballed it and decided it was "good enough".

You rightly say that the Powers subsystem is the most significant change introduced in 4e. Unfortunately, for me at least, it is the weakest and least fun of all the changes.

Cheers

 

[garyh]

Flavor-wise, I agree. The game not-so-subtly pushes you toward certain weapons and armor for certain classes. That in-and-of itself is not a bad thing, as it makes classes feel different (and require different gear, unlike 3e's chainshirt/breastplate/fullplate problem)

However, if a rogue, wizard, and fighter, all with proficiency in the same weapon (all of them are eladrin, so they all have longswords) the difference is only the variance in Str score +1 (for the fighter wpn talent). This is a large deviation from the difference in Thac0 or Bab that existed previously. (Again, this was needed to give fighters combat superiority, something technically not needed in an era of fighter powers and class abilities.) The oddity comes in those weird corner cases (lets say our three eladrin all have the same str score, so the fighter is only +1 to hit better than the wizard when making an opportunity attack) though in play it typically seems much more varied (due to wizards having higher int and rogues higher dex, emphasizing those scores over str)

Its an odd side-effect of even-leveling progressions amongst all classes. I guess its good to get rid of that "pray for a 20" problem of earlier editions, but it does seem odd when you stop and think the wizard and fighter essentially have the same "base attack bonus" for their powers these days...

I guess that just doesn't bother me. In 3.x, at level 1 you have the same situation in that corner case (fighter +1 over the rogue and wizard). And I guess it's just too much a corner case to phase me. If the fighter has the same strength as the wizard, a lack of faster BAB progression is the least of his worries.

 

[FireLance]

While I generally agree with Stalker0's points, I think most of the problems are rooted in the objective of having a system that would not overwhelm the average new player with too many options and variables to manage. Nonetheless, because the demand seems to be there, I'm fairly sure that we will see more complex options for advanced players in an Unearthed Arcana-type product in the future.

The reliance on hitting, for example, can be mitigated by having a recharge system for missed powers, but it would require more tracking on the part of the player. For example:
[SBLOCK]The first time in an encounter that the character misses with an encounter power or a non-reliable daily power, he gets a recharge range of .
Each subsequent time that he misses with an encounter power or a non-reliable daily power, he increases his recharge range by 1, e.g. from to .
A character who has a recharge range rolls a d6 at the start of his turn.
If the result of the d6 roll is within the recharge range, the character regains a used encounter power (optional; further tracking required: the character must regain missed encounter powers first) and reduces his recharge range by 1, e.g. from to .[/SBLOCK]
Alternatively, you could have a feat like the following, but the player will still have to track how many times he has missed with encounter powers and non-reliable daily powers:
[SBLOCK]Failure Breeds Success
Heroic Tier
Benefit: Each time you miss with an encounter attack power, you gain a cumulative +2 bonus to damage rolls with at-will attack powers until the end of the encounter.
Each time you miss with a non-reliable daily attack power, you gain a cumulative +1 bonus to attack rolls and a +2 bonus to damage rolls with at-will attack powers until the end of the encounter.
Special: The bonus to damage rolls increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level.[/SBLOCK]
Similarly, giving more options to players with respect to powers can be done, but at the cost of complicating the game. This could take a number of forms, e.g. simply not "forgetting" older powers when you gain levels (so a 13th-level character would know four encounter powers from his base class, but would only be able to use three in any one encounter) or using one or more feats to gain additional power choices similar to 3e's Extra Power or Extra Spell.

Actually replacing a daily power with an encounter power may be more problematic. It makes a character's power output much smoother, but reduces his ability to mitigate and recover from encounters which are going against him due to luck, tactical errors, etc. One possible way to manage this is to allow him to access his daily power in a pinch, e.g. by spending an action point.

 

[Stalker0]

In fact, there is little difference between a wizard, rogue, and fighter all striking with a weapon (barring strength score differences) which seems a bit of an oddity left over from the new resolution mechanic.

Well if you bar all the differences between the classes, then yes your not going to have a lot of difference

First of all, you have to include weapon proficiency. As a fighter I am proficient with a greatsword, with a wizard I am not (loss of +3 attack bonus right there). If as a wizard I then take a feat to become proficient, well then I have focused on martial training, so I'm not really a straight wizard anymore.

Further, you can't ignore the presence of your stat mod to your to hit. While theoretically if a wizard and a fighter had the same strength they would both almost have the same hit is true...the reality is that doesn't happen. And...if a wizard both had the same strength as a fighter and spent a feat to dedicate himself to training with a weapon...he still wouldn't have martial powers!

And that's an important fact to remember. Fighters don't do basic attacks, they only do that when they are "forced" to. Fighters use reaping strike, cleave, and tide of iron. That's where the "fighter" training comes in. No matter how good a wizard's attack bonus might be, if he's not using fighter techniques, he's just randomly swinging a hunk of metal.

 

[garyh]

And...if a wizard both had the same strength as a fighter and spent a feat to dedicate himself to training with a weapon...he still wouldn't have martial powers!

If that weapon was the shuriken, however, the wizard would then have REAL ULTIMATE POWER!

 

[justanobody]

Well, 4E is the only D&D edition I've ever seriously ran a game in. Every time I picked up the 3.X DMGs, the skin on my fingers would start to sizzle and pain would grip my entire being. So, I stayed away from 'em.

Don't blame you there. But even older editions the DM didn't need to feed ideas to the players. Just tell them to do or try whatever they wanted, and IF it was allowed then it would be figured out by the DM. Rather than having to say write houserules for each power to allow uses outside of what is listed.

Like the mass killing with Stone to Mud, using pick pockets while shaking a diplomats hand when parting, etc.

Empowering the player's creativity should be a function of the game, not a job for the DM.