D&D 5E Discussion, Level 20 abilities, does it matter if they are overpowered?

[Celebrim]

Nothing matters except whether classes are balanced with each other and that for a given level the mechanics support the story you wish to have unfold.

This means first that the designer needs to ensure that all 20th level classes share equal spotlight. If your Bloodrager is clearly superior to other classes, it fails that test.

Secondly, you need to decide what the story of 20th level characters is? Is the story of the most powerful of mortal lords, or is it the story of transcendent super-humans that have become veritable gods, capable of imposing their will on even the most puissant powers of the world? If your Bloodrager has one story, and other classes have a different one, then that fails the first test. If your intention is the former, but you've allowed the later, that fails the second test.

 

[Celtavian]

High level abilities certainly matter to me. A campaign starting at 1st level will likely never reach 20th level, but a campaign starting at 12th or 15th level may well get that high, and will certainly have NPCs of that level. Also, some adventures or even campaigns may start at 20th level and then revert to a lower level - having the big bad kill off (or worse, corrupt) the hero PCs, and then their apprentices have to fix things.

As for the Barbarian in the OP, maybe the wings are illusory - after all, giving a PC flight is a big event - but become real once per long rest at 20th level?

(The more I read on ENWorld, the more I'm convinced that PC shapechanging / polymorphing is thoroughly broken.)

Not so much for casters, but for the druid. A caster's single shapechange or his polymorph spell can be dispelled. He will eventually miss a concentration check having to make it every time he takes damage.

But the Moon druid wild shape at level 20 is broken. He can do it an unlimited number of times with no concentration required up to a CR 6 Beast or an elemental. Then again it is a level 20 ability. It's damn tough even for level 20.

 

[transtemporal]

Nothing wrong with high level abilities being powerful but they should be comparable to other classes. This is different to saying "Level 20 abilities can be overpowered, therefore anything I make up is justified."

So there's a couple of thoughts behind how I can deal with this. One thought is that I just leave it how it is, the justification is that even though the barbarian at level 20 is better than the level 20 paladin's ability, the paladin has access to spells and various other things thus making up for the fact that the 20 ability only lasts an hour.

My first thought is: Barbarians get their last path ability at 14 not 20. Unless you're planning on replacing Primal Champion?

My second thought is: You have to compare oranges with oranges. Comparing your level 20 to the paladins level 20 PLUS all of the Paladins previous abilities is a false comparison. Also, it helps to compare similar abilities. So I think you can compare say Primal Champion with the fighters level 20 Extra Attack (3) since they're both level 20 martial melee powers. Its harder to compare Primal Champion to the Rogues Stroke of Luck, for example.

The other option is the one I'm more wary about. I can nerf the barbs level 20 ability if they take the subclass. I'm not too comfortable having the subclass altering the base class abilities. If I did this I would allow the barbarian rage maybe 8 or 10 times a day.

I wouldn't do that. Assuming you've structured your subclass the same way as the other paths (3, 6, 10 ,14), it should be fine. If you've structured it like (3,6,10,12,13,14,16,17,18,19,20), then its probably super overpowered. Hard to say without seeing your proposed Bloodrager Path. Assume we have no idea what a Bloodrager is.

 

[Bawylie]

I have moved everyone's level 20 capstone down to 11th level. I liked the old idea of name level so I'm setting it at 11 and at that time you get the full expression of your class' power. It's fun.

 

[Evenglare]

But, more importantly, look at the eagle totem on page 50. At level 20 it can fly pretty much at-will too. However, it cannot end its turn aloft and is only the barb's walking speed. So a bloodrager option should have some small balancing factor. If the winged flight was slower (say 20 feet) then that might compensate for being able to end turns aloft. Or their could be an elevation requirement.

Thanks that's actually helpful advice about sling the flight down. I'll probably do that for sure.

 

[Evenglare]

I wouldn't do that. Assuming you've structured your subclass the same way as the other paths (3, 6, 10 ,14), it should be fine. If you've structured it like (3,6,10,12,13,14,16,17,18,19,20), then its probably super overpowered. Hard to say without seeing your proposed Bloodrager Path. Assume we have no idea what a Bloodrager is.

Here it is, it's notmuch
Path of the Bloodrager – Barbarian
Rage is part of a barbarian’s life. However some barbarians have latent abilities from past bloodlines mixing into their ancestry. When you take path of the bloodrager you must choose a bloodline. The bloodlines are Celestial, Fey, and Demonic. Each bloodline changes the manifestation of your powers.

When you choose your bloodline you are associated with a “type” of damage.
Celestial: Radiant
Fey: Fire or Ice (choose when you take the bloodline)
Demonic: Necrotic

Imbued Power
At 3rd level your melee attacks take on the ‘type” of damage associated with your bloodline. In addition to this you also deal +1d12 extra damage.

You also emit an aura of your type with a 5 ft. radius. Any foes within this radius must make a charisma save equal to 10 + rage damage or take 2d6 (6) “type” damage, your aura also illuminates the area with dim light.

Resistance
You emit an aura that deals 3d6 (9) “type” damage. Your bloodline also gives you a resistance to a certain type of damage. Celestial bloodlines resist against necrotic. Fey bloodlines resist against fire or ice, whichever is not the one you choose as your associated type of damage. Demonic bloodlines resist radiant damage.

Wings
At level 10 when you rage you grow wings appropriate to your bloodline (Celestials grow feathery angel wings, Fey grow elegant translucent wings, Demons grow leathery scaly wings) and can fly at a speed of 60 ft. Your radiant aura radius increases to 10 ft. and the damage increases to 4d6 (12) “type” damage.

Ascension
At level 14 you become infused with the power of the heavens giving you immunity to the type of damage you have resistance to. In addition to this your radiant aura now deals 5d6 (15) radiant damage and puts out bright light.

 

[Quartz]

That seems seriously unbalanced.

I've just checked the Monster Manual, and demons and devils are never resistant to Radiant damage, so that's inappropriate for the barbarian; poison might be a better bet.

That damage aura is far too good, both in the fact that it does damage and in the DC. Consider that someone meleeing a level 14 barbarian will have to make a DC 25 (maybe DC 40) save each round - that's pretty much guaranteed damage. Combined with the extra damage from Imbued Power, she's getting effectively 2 extra attacks.

I suggest you ditch the damage aura entirely, and the extra damage should come at the cost of being Fatigued.

 

[Li Shenron]

Regarding the general question, I am not afraid of over-the-top abilities at very high level, but the bottom line is always that all PCs deserve equal opportunities.

 

[Sacrosanct]

How many people have actually played level 20 PCs in an actual campaign, and not arena style combat? I'm more interested in actual play experiences rather than white room analysis, because one thing I've seen over and over again with 5e is that assumptions and theorycrafting hardly ever actually pans out that way in actual play

 

[steeldragons]

I have no problem with "over the top" abilties at 20th level. If you can't get/use 'em then, when can ya?!

That said, what I see here is not "over the top at 20". What I see here is something seriously overpowered from 3rd on...and completely antithetical to my concept of a barbarian.

Might make a decent mixed-blood paladin, I suppose. But still OP. And there's already tieflings and aasimar for "fiend/celestial bloodine" stuff. An Elrond-type of "Half-elf" for a fey bloodline makes sense. But that's all race dependent stuff. We already have Sorcerers. They're the "bloodline matters class". This seems it would make more sense as Sorcerer subclasses with some barbarian/combat stuff tacked on. [EDIT OR, simply, a tiefling/aasimar taking the barbarian class, as is.[/EDIT]

Yeah. Enjoy it as you like, of course. I would never allow/incorporate this...and again, overpowered way before 20th. To fix you perceived "issue" at 20th, raging is not "constant." You can use it unlimited times...you can make a bonus action any round you want, it will last for 20 minutes. If the powers you give them make sense for using a long time or many multiple times per day, then it's fine...at 20th level.