Discussion on the feasability of WotC supporting all editions in DDI

[shadzar]

And, as I said before, this is not just a data entry issue, it is probably also an application development issue. It isn't just about getting the game in a database, it is having an application that displays that data in a sensible manner, and what is sensible depends on the game's design.

Unless they changed the Rules Compendium over the past few years after it first came out, then it didn't have a interface that worked in a sensible manner anyway, but I would use it if it had older editions in it...

So the application exists already, just needs minor tweaking to adapt to other editions with less "stuff" to be searched for. IE: Don't need to search for feats in a system without feats.

People are making computers and computer work sound much harder than it is.

 

[El Mahdi]

...I´m still NDA-bound to not talk about pricing but it should be sufficient to know that around 50K pages typed cost less than a used car.

Used VW...or used Porsche?

And used car in Saigon or Germany?

 

[Coldwyn]

Used VW...or used Porsche?

And used car in Saigon or Germany?

Pretty damn used and near death small VW in Germany, if you want to know.

 

[Arlough]

Is it reasonable to ask them to? Sure.

Is it reasonable to expect them to do so without adequate compensation? Certainly not.

Each game is a separate design, and each would call for a different information architecture to manage in the DDI - having 4e does not get you the other editions for free, or even for the price of data entry. You are likely asking for a separate application for each edition of the game, which for a company that's still in the midst of trying to learn how to do software offerings is no mean feat.

Pay them enough money, it is reasonable. I'm guessing the price tag would be higher than people expect, or would want to pay.

Some years ago I worked for a company that "digitized" stuff, from last years telephone books to whole library indexes.
Truth be told, we scanned all that stuff at the cmpany headquarters in Munich, Germany and moved the raw scans over to our subsidiary in Ho Chi Minh City, Saigon. There, some 150 workers simply typed all that stuff into a database, working 24 hours a day in three shifts, so they really made good time. I´m still NDA-bound to not talk about pricing but it should be sufficient to know that around 50K pages typed cost less than a used car.

So that should be possible. What comes afterwards, will be the harder part of sorting, indexing, redacting and so on.

Unless they changed the Rules Compendium over the past few years after it first came out, then it didn't have a interface that worked in a sensible manner anyway, but I would use it if it had older editions in it...

So the application exists already, just needs minor tweaking to adapt to other editions with less "stuff" to be searched for. IE: Don't need to search for feats in a system without feats.

People are making computers and computer work sound much harder than it is.

Okay, what if they modified the license on the previous editions to match the OGL, but they didn't bother to digitize them. What if they gave us permission, (so long as we give credit, and perhaps put in a disclaimer about this not being a WotC supported edition) and left all the rest up to us?
Do you think that would be an acceptable solution?

Why would/wouldn't WotC go for it?
Why would/wouldn't the gaming community go for it?

 

[Umbran]

People are making computers and computer work sound much harder than it is.

With respect, I think you are making it sound trivial, when it isn't. "Just a few tweaks," is often times a developer's worst nightmare.

And also, "the DDI" is not just the Rules Compendium. You want Rules Compendium support, and nothing else? No other tools?

 

[the Jester]

Seriously, anyone who thinks digitizing the info from old editions is just a 2-hour job or something has no clue what they are talking about. It would take a LOT of man-hours, for which WotC would receive... what? Good will from lapsed customers, many of whom have already sworn never to buy a book from teh evil WotC Nazis? Yeah, not worth it.

WotC is a business. Anything they pour resources into needs to make them money. That is the nature of business. Supporting old editions, imho, will drain resources (that can't even keep up with their current workload!) for something that will deliver pretty much no money.

Don't get me wrong- I would love to see the return of old edition support. But I don't see it ever happening from WotC directly.

As far as licensing it out- who would pay the undoubtedly high fees when there are already a dozen or more so-called "Old School Renaissance" systems out there on the cheap (some of them free!) that do a fair or better job of recapturing earlier editions?

I just don't see any way that it makes business sense for anyone.

 

[Coldwyn]

Seriously, anyone who thinks digitizing the info from old editions is just a 2-hour job or something has no clue what they are talking about. It would take a LOT of man-hours, for which WotC would receive... what? Good will from lapsed customers, many of whom have already sworn never to buy a book from teh evil WotC Nazis? Yeah, not worth it.

WotC is a business. Anything they pour resources into needs to make them money. That is the nature of business. Supporting old editions, imho, will drain resources (that can't even keep up with their current workload!) for something that will deliver pretty much no money.

Don't get me wrong- I would love to see the return of old edition support. But I don't see it ever happening from WotC directly.

As far as licensing it out- who would pay the undoubtedly high fees when there are already a dozen or more so-called "Old School Renaissance" systems out there on the cheap (some of them free!) that do a fair or better job of recapturing earlier editions?

I just don't see any way that it makes business sense for anyone.

We´re talking four different things here.

1) It´s doable and it´s no mamuth sink of money and manpower if done with competent people. Granted, it´s still time-consuming.

2) The revenue-scheme is there. It´s called subscription model. As long as you can´t download that stuff or have some other easy way to remove it from DDI, than you must stay subscripted. That´ll bring a lot more money than the book or pdf sales because it´s the cow you keep on milking.

3) Ah, you know the retro-clone that hat my AD&D 2nd fighter book? or the chronomancr book? or the FR grey book? Let´s face it, most retroes have onyl tackled the bare core of each edition and can´t really progress further.

4) It´s up to debate if it makes business sense, but see 2 and consider the long run.

 

[shadzar]

Most of it already IS digitized.

Okay, what if they modified the license on the previous editions to match the OGL,

JOYGASM!

Well this wouldn't help DDi. I was trying to construct a method that would bring DDi customers in using the older editions based on the other thread.

If they opened up, and I think there is other reasons hidden in why PDFs of older editions were pulled and they might not be allowed to use them in full, to OGL format, that is a different type of support, that wouldn't necessarily help DDi or WotC. Might be a good faith move, but not likely to have customers for the DDi or people spend any money with WotC, unless WotC has some kind of product to buy for those older editions.

And also, "the DDI" is not just the Rules Compendium. You want Rules Compendium support, and nothing else? No other tools?

If the VTT does integrate rules into it to bring up displays ons creen of monsters or such, and this can also be used to pull data form the older edition compendiums... in a <blank>ing heartbeat!

I have tools for every edition before 4th, so don't need them. There are still tools out there for older editions form long ago. Not the best things since they probably need to be run in DOSBox now, but still they exist, and not much in the way tools were really needed.

I don't fathom them ever making tools as decent a there was for AD&D, and those were even lacking in functionality.

But having access to the spell compendiums and magic item compendiums and a monster repository, plus the "rules elements" to be able to play the game with IS support for older editions, and what I am basically suggesting. Something that lets people have access to the older material, and when the time comes the VTT to be able to display that info just as it is said it should for 4th edition.

It may be minimal if the data is not added too, but it is support, and likely support that would get people to try and dump at least $10 into where they weren't spending a thing on DDi before if they didn't use the 4th edition material, right?

So one subscription fee gets you access to all editions, dungeon, dragon, vtt, and the other 4th edition tools.

There is even a chance for WotC than an older edition player might see and like 4th edition enough to try some of its products, should any books ever be printed for 4th edition again.

So support has many levels, but the most basic is having enough there to play the game with in order to get people drawn to the DDi and try or maybe use it.

Looking at the data over time to see how many people are using older editions within the DDi, would let the judge what other content to include if they want to add things. Who knows, maybe one day even add settings to it.

 

[El Mahdi]

Don't get me wrong- I would love to see the return of old edition support. But I don't see it ever happening from WotC directly..

Probably true. But the only way to have a chance is to ask for it (and ask, and ask, and ask...)

As far as licensing it out- who would pay the undoubtedly high fees when there are already a dozen or more so-called "Old School Renaissance" systems out there on the cheap (some of them free!) that do a fair or better job of recapturing earlier editions?

I just don't see any way that it makes business sense for anyone.

Good point. But if WotC didn't license it out (did it themselves) they would be able to do something that the free OSR system publishers can't do...which is an integrated character builder, monster builder, encounter builder, compendium and supported VTT. I doubt even Paizo could do this for Pathfinder (what I call OSR 3E). There may be some individual third-party applications out there that can do some of this, but none that can come close to doing all of this. (Although technically, WotC can't do this for 4E yet either...)

 

[El Mahdi]

JOYGASM!

Easy there, big fella...