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Disdain for new fantasy
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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 3764481" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>How would you possibly argue that? Gaiman is a genius who has contributed a significant amount to the fantasy genre, so yeah, completely with you there, Rowling, on the other hand, is an ignoramus regarding fantasy as a genre (literally, her conception of fantasy begins and ends with The Lord of the Rings - Practically from her own admission), and whilst her fantasy series was popular, she has both denied it is fantasy, and then later, claimed she's "revolutionized the genre", when in fact what she's writing is functionally identical to stuff written decades before, none of which was hailed as revolutionary (the "Worst Witch" books, for example). That she is popular does not mean she is "important" to a genre, especially when she's outright denied being part of that genre and denounced the genre on the basis of her own stolid ignorance.</p><p></p><p>However, you are right to question whether "anime" and "WoW" have anything to do with "new fantasy". They do not. Anime is a style of animation and art, and to some degree, stereotypical plots. Much of it is sci-fi or "weird" or even "day-to-day", and whilst it engages with fantasies, frequently, only a certain subsection could be termed "fantasy". Similarly, WoW is not "new fantasy", it's just extremely dervative "old fantasy" put in a pink dress and some lipstick and sent to the prom.</p><p></p><p>WoW, as MMORPG, is arguably a very fun, excellently designed game (or a horrible piece of derivative trash, depending on who you ask). However it does not advance fantasy as a genre ONE SINGLE FOOT. There is nothing original in WoW, no uniqueness, no smart ideas. It's success comes in large part from it's familiarity, it's simplicity, and it's derivative nature - What does it have to teach D&D? That's debatable, but it sure as hell isn't "new fantasy".</p><p></p><p>New fantasy, I would argue, is fantasy written in the last five to ten years by new authors, from China Mieville's <em>Perdido Street Station</em>, to Greg Keyes "<em>Kingdoms of Bone </em> and Thorn", to Scott Lynch's "<em>Locke Lamora</em>" cycle, to Joe Abercrombie's "<em>First Law</em>" books, and many many others - all of these books include tropes and ideas not yet really seen in fantasy RPGs much. That's NEW FANTASY, not EQ-derivative MMORPGs (which in turn was severely AD&D derivative). You could also argue the LotR movies were "new fantasy", but they were such a timeless vision of old fantasy novels that I would question that.</p><p></p><p>So the disdain isn't for "new fantasy", that's misleading spin.</p><p></p><p>The disdain is for EQ-derivative MMORPGs and apparently for a Japanese animation style - and the disdain is strong because many people loathe derivative MMORPGs with very good reason. They're basically designed to hypnotize the stupid, and keep you mindlessly "advancing your character" forever. There's a lot that's "forced" and "fixed" about them - people don't want to see that in D&D because<em> it's not fun</em>.</p><p></p><p>Anime is a bit vague, to be honest. Lots of people hate Japanese animation because the vast majority of it that reaches western shores is extremely cliched, often creepy (in a bad way), and frequently extremely childish and child-oriented, which would be fine, if the westerners pushing it as "great entertainment" weren't 20-somethings who should know better (eg. Naruto, One Piece, etc. - all of which have some value being watched a handful of times, I admit). People who hate it are often unclear on what exactly it is they hate.</p><p></p><p>Some people hate the aesthetics. That's a matter of taste. I've seen anime that was beautiful and anime that's utterly hideous, so I don't think generalizing about the visual aesthetic is terribly helpful. It's all personal, though - for example, I really hate Akira Toriyama's work (if I have that name right), but I can see that the man has talent. I just don't want to look at his designs.</p><p></p><p>Some people hate the "Over the top anime action", which is similar in nature to so-called "wuxia" and so on. I think it's fine to hate that, but players want to do cool things, and so hate should not blind you to the odd cool thing worth stealing, nor should the baby be thrown out with the bathwater.</p><p></p><p>Other people just hate the stupid cliches and general "low-IQ" nature of most anime that reaches the West. I'm one of them so I don't feel I'm qualified to be reasonable on that.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, TLDR of it is: WoW + Anime IS NOT THE NEW FANTASY. WoW is ultra-derivative old fantasy, and anime is an animation style.</p><p></p><p>Edited in:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I quite agree - the worry is that one is mining uranium without any protection, though <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Sure it glows pretty, but it'll kill ya in the end.</p><p></p><p>I'm all for mining WoW for "neato" ideas - they did it to Warhammer and D&D, after all, amongst other sources. I just think one needs to be careful not to sweepingly include MMORPG elements in the haste to "learn from" or "mine" something. It could be very bad.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, I don't <em>think</em> WotC will screw this one up.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 3764481, member: 18"] How would you possibly argue that? Gaiman is a genius who has contributed a significant amount to the fantasy genre, so yeah, completely with you there, Rowling, on the other hand, is an ignoramus regarding fantasy as a genre (literally, her conception of fantasy begins and ends with The Lord of the Rings - Practically from her own admission), and whilst her fantasy series was popular, she has both denied it is fantasy, and then later, claimed she's "revolutionized the genre", when in fact what she's writing is functionally identical to stuff written decades before, none of which was hailed as revolutionary (the "Worst Witch" books, for example). That she is popular does not mean she is "important" to a genre, especially when she's outright denied being part of that genre and denounced the genre on the basis of her own stolid ignorance. However, you are right to question whether "anime" and "WoW" have anything to do with "new fantasy". They do not. Anime is a style of animation and art, and to some degree, stereotypical plots. Much of it is sci-fi or "weird" or even "day-to-day", and whilst it engages with fantasies, frequently, only a certain subsection could be termed "fantasy". Similarly, WoW is not "new fantasy", it's just extremely dervative "old fantasy" put in a pink dress and some lipstick and sent to the prom. WoW, as MMORPG, is arguably a very fun, excellently designed game (or a horrible piece of derivative trash, depending on who you ask). However it does not advance fantasy as a genre ONE SINGLE FOOT. There is nothing original in WoW, no uniqueness, no smart ideas. It's success comes in large part from it's familiarity, it's simplicity, and it's derivative nature - What does it have to teach D&D? That's debatable, but it sure as hell isn't "new fantasy". New fantasy, I would argue, is fantasy written in the last five to ten years by new authors, from China Mieville's [I]Perdido Street Station[/I], to Greg Keyes "[I]Kingdoms of Bone [/I] and Thorn", to Scott Lynch's "[I]Locke Lamora[/I]" cycle, to Joe Abercrombie's "[I]First Law[/I]" books, and many many others - all of these books include tropes and ideas not yet really seen in fantasy RPGs much. That's NEW FANTASY, not EQ-derivative MMORPGs (which in turn was severely AD&D derivative). You could also argue the LotR movies were "new fantasy", but they were such a timeless vision of old fantasy novels that I would question that. So the disdain isn't for "new fantasy", that's misleading spin. The disdain is for EQ-derivative MMORPGs and apparently for a Japanese animation style - and the disdain is strong because many people loathe derivative MMORPGs with very good reason. They're basically designed to hypnotize the stupid, and keep you mindlessly "advancing your character" forever. There's a lot that's "forced" and "fixed" about them - people don't want to see that in D&D because[I] it's not fun[/I]. Anime is a bit vague, to be honest. Lots of people hate Japanese animation because the vast majority of it that reaches western shores is extremely cliched, often creepy (in a bad way), and frequently extremely childish and child-oriented, which would be fine, if the westerners pushing it as "great entertainment" weren't 20-somethings who should know better (eg. Naruto, One Piece, etc. - all of which have some value being watched a handful of times, I admit). People who hate it are often unclear on what exactly it is they hate. Some people hate the aesthetics. That's a matter of taste. I've seen anime that was beautiful and anime that's utterly hideous, so I don't think generalizing about the visual aesthetic is terribly helpful. It's all personal, though - for example, I really hate Akira Toriyama's work (if I have that name right), but I can see that the man has talent. I just don't want to look at his designs. Some people hate the "Over the top anime action", which is similar in nature to so-called "wuxia" and so on. I think it's fine to hate that, but players want to do cool things, and so hate should not blind you to the odd cool thing worth stealing, nor should the baby be thrown out with the bathwater. Other people just hate the stupid cliches and general "low-IQ" nature of most anime that reaches the West. I'm one of them so I don't feel I'm qualified to be reasonable on that. Anyway, TLDR of it is: WoW + Anime IS NOT THE NEW FANTASY. WoW is ultra-derivative old fantasy, and anime is an animation style. Edited in: I quite agree - the worry is that one is mining uranium without any protection, though ;) Sure it glows pretty, but it'll kill ya in the end. I'm all for mining WoW for "neato" ideas - they did it to Warhammer and D&D, after all, amongst other sources. I just think one needs to be careful not to sweepingly include MMORPG elements in the haste to "learn from" or "mine" something. It could be very bad. On the other hand, I don't [I]think[/I] WotC will screw this one up. [/QUOTE]
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