Dispel Magic - Does a caster know it's been dispelled?

[Murrdox]

My ruling last night caused a bit of controversy.... here was the situation...

One of my "Mini-Bosses", a Sorc5/Fight5 was engaged in combat with a player cleric - lvl 6. The Cleric successfully cast "Blind" on my bad guy (DAMN!). So, to avoid being bombarded by ranged weapons, he cast "Obscuring Mist" and backed away so no one could see him. Unfortunately, the Cleric's next round, he cast Dispel Magic on the mist.

My player was upset that the bad guy would realize (despite the fact that he's blind) that his Obscuring Mist had been dispelled.

I had him make a spellcraft check to identify that the cleric had cast "Dispel Magic", and he sucessfully made it. So he knew the cleric had cast a Dispel... does he automatically know his mist is now gone?

Also, like an idiot I made an error using Mirror Image last night in spite of a long thread on the subject here.... the bad guy cast Mirror Image, and then the player wizard blasted him with a Glitterdust. I figured "okay" and after reading the spells, said that the bad guy had glittering dust all over him, but the images didn't, thus they could discern which is which. I think instead, I should have only had that effect last until the bad guy shuffled the images, at which point all the images would then appear covered in glitterdust.

What do you guys think on both situations?

 

[hong]

I would have the bad guy make a Spellcraft check as a free action on his turn, to recognise the dispel magic being cast. If that worked, I'd deduce that one of my ongoing spells had been dispelled. If the only such spell was the obscuring mist, well then, that makes it easy, no?

 

[kreynolds]

My player was upset that the bad guy would realize (despite the fact that he's blind) that his Obscuring Mist had been dispelled.

I had him make a spellcraft check to identify that the cleric had cast "Dispel Magic", and he sucessfully made it. So he knew the cleric had cast a Dispel... does he automatically know his mist is now gone?

Not really. Why would he know its been dispelled? Obscuring Mist isn't even dismissable, so there's no connection to the caster after it has been cast. The mere fact that it was dispelled should not have alerted the NPC that his OM had been taken down.

As a side note, Spellcraft states "You must see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components." so it looks like the blindness wasn't a problem, as he could still hear. I have to wonder if you're supposed to be able to both see and hear though.

 

[Murrdox]

Well, the NPC couldn't see the Cleric both because he was blind, and because of the Obscuring Mist.

Without looking up the Spellcraft skill, at the time I gave the NPC a -4 penalty to his spellcraft check because he could only hear the verbal component. If Spellcraft only requires you to see OR hear the spell being cast, I probably shouldn't have given him a penalty for that, but he passed it anyways, so everything was good.

So is it the general rule that only dismissable or spells that require concentration are automatically known to be dispelled?

 

[hong]

So is it the general rule that only dismissable or spells that require concentration are automatically known to be dispelled?

No, but it's something that any spellcaster with half a brain would beable to figure out. He wouldn't know whether the dispel succeeded, but he'd know which of his spells were susceptible to being dispelled.

"Let's see, in the last 3 rounds I've cast a fireball, a magic missile, and an obscuring mist. Now this cleric's just cast a dispel magic. Hmm, I wonder if my fireball's been dispelled...?"

 

[kreynolds]

No, but it's something that any spellcaster with half a brain would beable to figure out.

Exactly, but it is only fair that the DM keep in mind that the NPC can't know with absolute certainty what the purpose of the dispel was, thus he can't know with absolute certainty that his OM was dispelled. Ignoring this is basically a form of metagaming on the DMs part. My intention isn't to be accusatory, more just to point out what should be avoided.

Just my 2 cp. Refunds are available at the Customer Service counter.

 

[Murrdox]

Well, as soon as the Obscuring Mist was gone, he got blasted by Spellfire, and taken to 0 HP... so knowing whether or not his mist was dispelled didn't pop up, since he didn't have a chance to recast it.

I was also thinking that since mist is generally moist and cold, that he might be able to FEEL it not be around him anymore... to confirm his suspisions that his mist was dispelled... but it's magical mist... not natural mist... so it isn't necessarily mist in the conventional sense, so I decided not to allow that.

 

[kreynolds]

... but it's magical mist... not natural mist... so it isn't necessarily mist in the conventional sense, so I decided not to allow that.

K.I.S.S.

 

[coyote6]

K.I.S.S.

Hmm, so anyone can automatically tell an obscuring mist from an ordinary thick mist ("Hey, this mist isn't cold or even moist; it must be magic!")? That's potentially useful; you'll be able to tell whether an encroaching fog is just regular ol' weather, or magic conjured to cover the approach of a foe.

 

[melkoriii]

Exactly, but it is only fair that the DM keep in mind that the NPC can't know with absolute certainty what the purpose of the dispel was, thus he can't know with absolute certainty that his OM was dispelled. Ignoring this is basically a form of metagaming on the DMs part. My intention isn't to be accusatory, more just to point out what should be avoided.

Just my 2 cp. Refunds are available at the Customer Service counter.

Im not sure what your getting at Kreynolds.

I see that the NPC could not tell for sure that his spell was Dispelled BUT, if that was the only spell that he cast that could be dispelled he would defenatly assume it was because he's smart and wouldnt what to take the chance to be wrong. Better safe then sorry.

The Spellcraft check to know a spell being cast is See or Hear. So since he made the check he KNOWS it was a Dispell and since he himself did not fail a save, he can assume it was cast on the OM.