Dispelling the anti-4e misinformation and why 4e is the best ever!

[Weregrognard]

1) The game sold out to sell miniatures and is no longer D&D.

D&D started with miniatures, 3.x heavily brought them back in and bogged the rules down with them. 4.0 made miniatures easy to use with the rules and actually made the encounters using them fun. I never used miniatures before, I resented 3.x need for them, and I love how D&D 4.0 uses them. Combat in 4.0 is intense and miniatures add to it.

I can at least understand the reluctance to spend money on miniatures (although there are cheaper alternatives). The one I don't get is the "miniatures cramp my roleplaying" argument. So your telling me your imagination is too fragile to deal with a 3D visual aid?

I left the "how many characters can attack the skeleton through the doorway" arguments with 2nd edition and have never looked back.

 

[xechnao]

I can at least understand the reluctance to spend money on miniatures (although there are cheaper alternatives). The one I don't get is the "miniatures cramp my roleplaying" argument. So your telling me your imagination is too fragile to deal with a 3D visual aid?

I left the "how many characters can attack the skeleton through the doorway" arguments with 2nd edition and have never looked back.

It is not just an aid. It is also a condition. It implies a static condition that realistically may not hold. More abstract AND realistic mechanics can be done with dice but I have yet to see this done really well in any commercial RPG. Still too much old-school mentality in the RPG design culture I guess.

 

[Zweischneid]

1) The game sold out to sell miniatures and is no longer D&D.

D&D started with miniatures, 3.x heavily brought them back in and bogged the rules down with them. 4.0 made miniatures easy to use with the rules and actually made the encounters using them fun. I never used miniatures before, I resented 3.x need for them, and I love how D&D 4.0 uses them. Combat in 4.0 is intense and miniatures add to it.

As a miniature 'sceptic', I'd like to add here as well that mini's is iMO not a good thing. Sure D&D started with mini's cause thats what people played back than. Read the old Gyax articles and you'll find him comparing stuff to gazillion other mini games like Tractics or some historical mini-battles.

But you know why D&D became special, has lasted for decades and become the market leader and arguable spawned a whole new industry while hundreds of other 70s games were lost to oblivion?

Because D&D tapped into the imagination of people as it moved away from miniatures!

 

[malladin]

I completely agree with the OP. The only real reason not to go 4e is your level of investment in 3e. And even then I would grab many of the core 4e concepts as I could and keep some level of compatibility (core combat, healing surges, rituals, npc/monster building)

And you get to judge other peoples motivations because? This attitude really does our community discredit. As gamers people look for different things in their games and as shocking as it may seem to some 4th ed, indeed D&D in any edition, is not a game that suits everyones tastes or needs. Certainly there are no objective grounds on which it can be declared perfect and so invalidate people's complaints. 4th ed rocks for you cool, it doesn't for other people so learn to respect there opinions even if you don't agree with them.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Because D&D tapped into the imagination of people as it moved away from miniatures!

The question is, can it still tap in the imagination of people once we learned to use it without miniatures? or will they "devolve" us to the non-imaginative kind? Or it this just a worry for new-comers? Or is there a certain group consciousness (or something between the lines) that can avoid that?

Other question is if the premise is actually correct? Maybe was it just because people tapped so much into their imagination that they sometimes forget the board-game and miniatures part, and thus "forgot" to integrate it in the game system?
This actually sounds more likely to me then the opposite - it can't be true that someone accidentally forgot to focus on miniatures during game design and then noticed "hey, this non-mini stuff works wonders for my imagination".


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As a side note: Theoretically, you don't have to use minis and still present everything graphically. Graph Paper and some kind of tokens can be enough.

 

[Imaro]

I just wanted to comment on the whole mini's thing. I don't necessarily have anything against them, but with that said I would have liked for them to be more optional and less required than they are in 4e. Why? Because sometimes I don't feel like setting all of that stuff (minis, tiles or mat, etc.) up, or because it can limit the area where it's possible to play, and as the DM if I have to travel it's a hassle carrying all that extra stuff.

 

[Vascant]

I completely agree with the OP. The only real reason not to go 4e is your level of investment in 3e. And even then I would grab many of the core 4e concepts as I could and keep some level of compatibility (core combat, healing surges, rituals, npc/monster building).

How about the reason, I am still having fun and enjoy 3.5e? I also don't need the core concepts either, out of 30 players that I DM in a month only 1 wanted to change to 4e (He pissed me off with his preaching that I ended up kicking him from the group)

 

[Mark Chance]

3.x leveling and multiclassing was impossible to balance.

I must totally rule. In every single 4E thread, someone comments about how some activity was impossible in 3.x, and every single time I've accomplished exactly that which is said to be un-accomplish-able.

 

[mcrow]

I seem to be in the minority but by my reading of the books it looks like 4E is actually less dependant on minis.

 

[Psion]

I do not understand most of the reasons for the anti 4e crowd.

So therefore it's dishonesty?

You might not understand or agree with people's reasons for not liking 4e, but that doesn't make it dishonest. Having preferences or perceptions that differs from yours is not an honesty issue, and to suggest it is is frankly insulting.