Displacement - a bit wussy eh? Mirror image too...

[Hussar]

/snip

Displacement cannot be used on the Wizard's turn (i.e. immediate actions can only be done on other creature's turns). For example, using it to prevent an opportunity attack or a different immediate action./snip

It was my understanding that immediete actions could be used any time, including other people's turns. Am I wrong in that?

 

[catsclaw]

There is every point in comparison between 3e and 4e if for no other reason than to determine whether you prefer one edition to the other ... I have enough info to look at this spell and say that my expectation from D&D magic are that a spell you get halfway to the top should be better than this, it should be better than the pathetic nerfs that are Fly and Greater Invisibility in 4e too.

You're welcome to home-rule that the wizard class can take abilities that are within twice their class level, while all other classes have to take abilities that are within their class level. That should power up wizards just fine.

Please understand for a lot of us, that's one of the things that sucks about 3.5. The effective rule for 3.5 for wizards, druids, and clerics is they get to pick abilities that are twice as powerful as any other class. Coming out here and complaining about how underpowered wizards are in 4e isn't going to earn you any sympathy.

 

[keterys]

Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong.

I think 4E Displacement sucks. I just don't like it. It's not exciting.
3E Displacement is much COOLER.

4E Mirror Image is also just bleh. I know the order for 4E is Fast Combat, but 3E Mirror Image simply delivers more fun.

Maybe those spells are useful and powerfull when we see the full 4E rules, but IMO they will still look boring.

Just so we're clear... do you mean for the caster, or for the opponents of the caster?

Cause from the perspective of a character attacking someone with those spells, 4e looks categorically more fun, instead of the pure unadulterated 'Neener' of 3rd's version of them.

 

[small pumpkin man]

Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong.

I think 4E Displacement sucks. I just don't like it. It's not exciting.
3E Displacement is much COOLER.

4E Mirror Image is also just bleh. I know the order for 4E is Fast Combat, but 3E Mirror Image simply delivers more fun.

Maybe those spells are useful and powerfull when we see the full 4E rules, but IMO they will still look boring.

I invoke Robin Laws player types.

It's a tactition/buttkicker divide. To a Tactition, 3.x is better because there's this huge planning payoff of casting the 3-4 spells beforehand which make you mostly immune to physical attacks, to a buttkicker, this isn't fun you have to time it properly, it's slow and fiddly and there's no immediate reward. To a Tactition, there's nothing interesting in 4e displacement, there's no planning, especially just in writing, there's nothing there, it's only tactical in the way it interacts with other powers, to a buttkicker, all they see is that one time when the Dragon crits the Fighter fo 80 dmg, and the Wizard goes HAH, DISPLACEMENT! ROLL AGAIN, SALAMANDER! (or whatever).

Thing is, I enjoy making Batman Wizards, and there's a lot less to support that kind of character creation system mastery in 4e, but I don't really enjoy playing them that much, I see 4e Displacement in particular being more fun in play, Mirror Image however works pretty much how Improved Mirror Image does in 3.x, just nerfed, I don't really see how it's more or less fun.

 

[small pumpkin man]

It was my understanding that immediete actions could be used any time, including other people's turns. Am I wrong in that?

Thing is, you can ONLY use them on other people's turns. Or at least, from what we've read, you can't use them on your own turn (although this is possibly different in the actual books), so a Wizard apparently can't use Displacement to re-roll and OA she gets from moving past someone.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong.

I think 4E Displacement sucks. I just don't like it. It's not exciting.
3E Displacement is much COOLER.

4E Mirror Image is also just bleh. I know the order for 4E is Fast Combat, but 3E Mirror Image simply delivers more fun.

Maybe those spells are useful and powerfull when we see the full 4E rules, but IMO they will still look boring.

I really can't say much about this except to say the scale is definitely different.

In 3e, as a wizard you started off just out of wizard school. You could change the color of something maybe twice per day and you might be able to throw a magic missile at someone once and make them sore but likely not kill them.

You ended up being able to kill everyone in an entire village with a single wave of your hands while flying and completely invisible after having teleported from one side of the planet to the other 6 seconds ago. Even if someone could find you and see you, you'd be immune to almost anything they could do to you for minutes if not hours.

In 4e, you start off as a competent wizard who can move things around at will, shoot missiles whenever you want to and kill most people with a single hit. You are capable of single-handedly defeating a couple of dangerous creatures. Given some time you can do some amazing things.

By the end, you are an amazingly powerful wizard who can do things no one else would even consider possible. Turn invisible? Fly up to the roof of a building with a wave of your hand? Make an illusion of someone a couple feet away from where they actually are in order to confuse an enemy attacking them? Your spells are powerful enough to take down dragons, giants, and even demons. However, you still walk places, use doors, ask people politely to do things for you, sleep for 6-8 hours per night, eat food, live in a house, and so on. You are still mortal and still have to deal with the realities of normal life.

I just don't ever see a time in 4e where the wizard says "They are storing all the treasure in the vault in the middle of the castle? Yawn. I put up stone skin, improved invisibility, displacement, greater mage armor, shield, mirror image, energy immunity to all 5 energy types, and fly, then for the next couple of minutes virtually nothing can hurt me. I scry and telport into the vault with enough time to load the entire treasure into a portable hole and teleport out. If they have the vault warded against teleport somehow I'll just have to use passwalls, disintegrates, or dimension doors to get in."

 

[Campbell]

It's a tactition/buttkicker divide. To a Tactition, 3.x is better because there's this huge planning payoff of casting the 3-4 spells beforehand which make you mostly immune to physical attacks, to a buttkicker, this isn't fun you have to time it properly, it's slow and fiddly and there's no immediate reward. To a Tactition, there's nothing interesting in 4e displacement, there's no planning, especially just in writing, there's nothing there, it's only tactical in the way it interacts with other powers, to a buttkicker, all they see is that one time when the Dragon crits the Fighter fo 80 dmg, and the Wizard goes HAH, DISPLACEMENT! ROLL AGAIN, SALAMANDER! (or whatever).

This is not true for all values of Tactician. Personally, I find being able to prepare your way out of a paper bag dreadfully boring from a tactical standpoint. Knowing that a fight is over before it starts robs me of the ability to adjust to changing dynamics and the ability to be challenged during game play instead of in the preparation minigame, particularly in those instances where a victory lies entirely on my shoulders. I despise "I win" combos that can only be disrupted by dispelling.

To address the question of Displacement here is what I foresee liking about it from a tactical standpoint.

• You cannot load up on the spell. You have one chance to use it in any given encounter.
• It's not a personal spell.
• It works against all attacks, expanding the number of decision points available.
• It has a fairly limited range which forces a wizard to wisely consider his movement if he plans to use it to assist others.
• If there are a number of Wizard powers that use immediate actions it has a round by round cost that is nontrivial. This is a fairly significant caveat.

With all that being said, it's entirely possible they might have screwed the pooch here in a number of ways.

I'd also like to say that I'm not a fan of the new mirror image spell for a different reason than most - I don't like that it only affects attacks made against AC.

 

[small pumpkin man]

This is not true for all values of Tactician.

Yeah, okay. Maybe I'm not using the term properly. Actually, thinking about it, I know I'm not using the term properly. Reworded, I feel that the 4e version loses "system mastery" fun to gain "in play" fun, and I think that's totally worth it.

I'd also like to say that I'm not a fan of the new mirror image spell for a different reason than most - I don't like that it only affects attacks made against AC.

Same. I've said several times on this board that I think it should world against all ranged and melee attacks, not attacks vs AC.

 

[Kishin]

4E Mirror Image is also just bleh. I know the order for 4E is Fast Combat, but 3E Mirror Image simply delivers more fun.

It also delivers more incredible overpoweredness for its spell level in 3E.

It's a tactition/buttkicker divide. To a Tactition, 3.x is better because there's this huge planning payoff of casting the 3-4 spells beforehand which make you mostly immune to physical attacks,

As much as I hate bringing Robin Laws into this, I consider myself a pretty hardcore Tactician/Storyteller, and I don't find 3E's better. I agree 110% with what was said by Campbell: Outplaying and outmanuevering an opponent is fun: Pressing the IWIN button 3-4 times in rapid succession isn't.

 

[Campbell]

Yeah, okay. Maybe I'm not using the term properly. Actually, thinking about it, I know I'm not using the term properly. Reworded, I feel that the 4e version loses "system mastery" fun to gain "in play" fun, and I think that's totally worth it.

I think your using the term correctly. There are multiple forms of Tactician. There is bound to be some confusion because Robin Law's Tactician Player Archetype encompasses those who prefer both strategic play (spell preparation and adventuring logistics) and tactical play (situational dynamics, ability synergy, responding to enemy actions). I just happen to find the latter more exciting than the former, and the designers of 4e apparently agree since they sacrificed elements of strategic play that have existed for a long time in order to ensure that tactical play was more exciting.

Same. I've said several times on this board that I think it should world against all ranged and melee attacks, not attacks vs AC.

Agreed.