D&D 4E Dissociating what I (we?) like from the mechanics

Aldarc

Legend
The only thing it would be missing is an Elemental power source :p I blame the 'Arcane' power source for being way too vague. That's probably an area I would break with D&D tradition if I was making a new game: define and limit 'magic' so other power sources can better stand on their own and relate better to the rest of the cosmology.

For an Elemental Class, I had this idea for years now of a sort of close combat Controller/Defender that channeled the Elemental Chaos through their equipment, transmuting their heavy armor and other gear into fonts of elemental power. Imagine this heavy armoured character who suddenly gets engulfed in flame, or his armor becomes blades whirling around him or sprouts spikes of sharp rocks...

I wonder if it would have made sense to connect the Sorcerer to the Elemental Chaos?
I would define Arcane as "bringing Order to Chaos."So it would be a blending of Astral/Divine and Material/Elemental, representing the Nexus of these cosmic forces.
 

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Kannik

Hero
The only thing it would be missing is an Elemental power source :p I blame the 'Arcane' power source for being way too vague. That's probably an area I would break with D&D tradition if I was making a new game: define and limit 'magic' so other power sources can better stand on their own and relate better to the rest of the cosmology.

For an Elemental Class, I had this idea for years now of a sort of close combat Controller/Defender that channeled the Elemental Chaos through their equipment, transmuting their heavy armor and other gear into fonts of elemental power. Imagine this heavy armoured character who suddenly gets engulfed in flame, or his armor becomes blades whirling around him or sprouts spikes of sharp rocks...

I wonder if it would have made sense to connect the Sorcerer to the Elemental Chaos?
While I like the Essentials Elementalist class for its blastery base, I gotta say, the above is one awesome concept that I'd love to see/play! :D
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
I like the growing list. This brings up the flipside question for me:

What would I change?

I'd say:

1) Flatter math - 5e has shown that the "bounded accuracy" works well to make a single monster stat-block last longer across levels (without having to constantly make "bigger" versions. Now, I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as 5e did, but something like a +1 prof bonus for every three levels? I think it would work.

2) Probably start level one a little less "heroic" - I liked the idea that adventurers were professionals, even at level one, but it could start a little lower.

3) Make magic items magical. - IMO one of 4e's biggest weaknesses was magic items - BUT I would LOVE LOVE LOVE mundane items to have a nice long range before things become magic. A "bearded axe" that gives you a chance to trip? Etc. Items could come with "powers" without having to be magic. Save the "real" magic for paragon and epic.

Hmmm... that might be about it.
 

Monsters don't require you to flip to other pages which is a result of one of your point below about monsters not being PCs. Having everything in one, simple to consult, place is the best. Having monsters using PC spells is just the worst idea ever.

PF2e does a little better job than 5e with interesting monsters and the monsters don't have to be built as PCs anymore but man, they kept the PC spells and it kills me.
 

Undrave

Legend
While I like the Essentials Elementalist class for its blastery base, I gotta say, the above is one awesome concept that I'd love to see/play! :D
Thinking on it I had this idea for a blastery Sorcerer that came with a basic blasting power everybody got, but that power was modified by your bloodline, then you would have certain actions that would grant you bonus to your next Basic Blast, either baked into the Encounter powers or into your bloodline (like, taking damage triggers it). And then Dailies that grant your basic blast a buff for the rest of the encounter, like a magical stance.
2) Probably start level one a little less "heroic" - I liked the idea that adventurers were professionals, even at level one, but it could start a little lower.
Maybe you start without a daily? Just a pair of at-wills and one stronger encounter move?
3) Make magic items magical. - IMO one of 4e's biggest weaknesses was magic items - BUT I would LOVE LOVE LOVE mundane items to have a nice long range before things become magic. A "bearded axe" that gives you a chance to trip? Etc. Items could come with "powers" without having to be magic. Save the "real" magic for paragon and epic.
I've never been a fan of the 'You must be at least this magical to hurt this creature' mechanics of classic D&D anyway so I'm onboard for that.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Thinking on it I had this idea for a blastery Sorcerer that came with a basic blasting power everybody got, but that power was modified by your bloodline, then you would have certain actions that would grant you bonus to your next Basic Blast, either baked into the Encounter powers or into your bloodline (like, taking damage triggers it). And then Dailies that grant your basic blast a buff for the rest of the encounter, like a magical stance.

Maybe you start without a daily? Just a pair of at-wills and one stronger encounter move?

I've never been a fan of the 'You must be at least this magical to hurt this creature' mechanics of classic D&D anyway so I'm onboard for that.

Maybe really, REALLY powerful creatures. Epic tier? No problem with that. Otherwise, c'mon. I mean, you can do stuff like make lycanthropes resist non-silvered, I suppose. Or regenerate from it. Either way.

While I'm on the subject of both magic and math - I'd say ditch the +5 (or was it 6?) items and go with the average of getting a +1 by the end of heroic, +2 throughout paragon, and +3 in Epic. MAYBE +4 for extreme awesomeness at late epic. But more like the +1 / tier feats than how 4e did magic. Obviously you rework the math of challenges appropriately.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
2) Probably start level one a little less "heroic" - I liked the idea that adventurers were professionals, even at level one, but it could start a little lower.
Or, as a DM-side option add in several in-between levels - there's room enough for them! - between commoner and 1st-level adventurer; such that while the default starting point remains at 1st level a DM could, if she so chooses, start at a lower point to give a bit more of the zero-to-hero feel for those as wants it.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Or, as a DM-side option add in several in-between levels - there's room enough for them! - between commoner and 1st-level adventurer; such that while the default starting point remains at 1st level a DM could, if she so chooses, start at a lower point to give a bit more of the zero-to-hero feel for those as wants it.

Yeah, you could do a three-level mini game before level one (if desired) and keep 1-30 "pure" for actual professional adventurers. Though one of the lessons that 5e learned was to NOT "front load" level one for less multiclassing dips (to various degrees of success). Although I don't recal 4e having much of a problem with that.
 

Kannik

Hero
I like the growing list. This brings up the flipside question for me:

What would I change?

1) Flatter math - 5e has shown that the "bounded accuracy" works well to make a single monster stat-block last longer across levels (without having to constantly make "bigger" versions. Now, I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as 5e did, but something like a +1 prof bonus for every three levels? I think it would work.
I'd concur, the ever escalating value was for me too high in 4e. Tighter bounding while still allowing the need for minions et al.

Also, work in advantage/disadvantage.
2) Probably start level one a little less "heroic" - I liked the idea that adventurers were professionals, even at level one, but it could start a little lower.
Personally I don't mind the starting point for 1st level chars, so I'd keep this as an optional "0 level/pre-hero" rule. :)
3) Make magic items magical. - IMO one of 4e's biggest weaknesses was magic items - BUT I would LOVE LOVE LOVE mundane items to have a nice long range before things become magic. A "bearded axe" that gives you a chance to trip? Etc. Items could come with "powers" without having to be magic. Save the "real" magic for paragon and epic.
Aye! For starters, as part of the flatter/reworked math, forgo requiring and remove any bonus to hit on a magical weapon (similar to the inherent bonus mod, only not adding/requiring it) except in rare cases. Then, magic weapons have interesting properties: greater weapon base die, additional elemental damage dice, interesting abilities or bonuses to abilities and powers, extra powers, and etc. Similarly with armour and other items. And encourage naming items and giving them unique flair (that may or may not affect mechanics).

In addition, ensure that flavourful/creativity-inducing items remain and are highlighted: feather tokens, decanters of endless water, universal solvents, immovable rods, etc. Out of the box player thinking FTW!

(As a solution to the Christmas tree effect in 4e, our group rolled with it such that when you 'got' a magic item you could either have it be a magic item or re-fluff it as a new skill/talent/ability the character acquired, or something in between. For example, for my runecaster, getting a 'magic item' that improved their resistance to elemental magic I described it as him having been continually etching runes on his armour and now they are complete, energizing to grant them the resistance. For my ranger/fighter hybrid, a "pair of boots that lets you stand up from prone as a minor action" was just something they'd developed innately. In all cases, the mechanics didn't change, including slots and etc, in order to maintain balance, but these descriptions made our characters and the game more evocative and personal. Doubly so if you chose to keep it as an actual magic item... because then it was a MAGIC ITEM.)

Similarly, ensure and include spells and especially rituals that likewise invite creativity and non-strict-encounter use (or that only have a described mechanical effect.)
 

Kannik

Hero
Ack, forgot to include that when it comes to removing the +s to hit, I'm still cool with creatures who require a particular material to strike them or to do full effect against. That's more interesting to me than just needing a generic "magic weapon."

(That said, as always it remains incumbent on the DM to telegraph this kind of thing so that the players aren't necessarily caught flat footed in a 'gotya' kind of moment.)
 

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