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Divine Challenge at the end of your turn
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<blockquote data-quote="LokiDR" data-source="post: 4375021" data-attributes="member: 6239"><p>Again, you are applying the ability recursively. "You mark the target. You must engage the target before the end of your turn." is clear and doesn't run over rounds. You DC and engage. The next round, you can pick a new target and the second choice, "On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target." keeps the ability going. This is essentially your ruling and the verbiage could very clearly support you. It does not and we have recursive application of the definition.</p><p></p><p>Even simpler, the verbiage could say "On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target <em>and engage them</em>." The lack of these simple phrases implies you are working too hard at interpretation.</p><p></p><p></p><p>By your reading, it expires if you fail to engage the target by the end of the round. Do you see the difference?</p><p></p><p></p><p>The ability says "<strong>or</strong>", you say "<strong>and</strong>". Isn't this clearly different than the ability states?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, it is clear the ability can only be used once a round. Why do you insist the ability expires before I have a chance to make the choice of engage or pick different target?</p><p></p><p></p><p>First off, Lay on Hands doesn't have any effect that lasts from round to round so it's an improper example. Second, I am reading from the beginning: You mark the target. "You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use the power against another target, or you fail to engage the target." Until that choice is made, the mark remains.</p><p></p><p>Again, why doesn't "fail to engage" apply the instant I am not engaged, such as shifting away?</p><p></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Yes, the previous challenge must be resolved first: you challenged a different target. Ok, the first DC is done. Now we work on the second target. He is marked until I mark another target or fail to engage.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>There's a lot of semantics in your argument. Lets set that aside for a moment and look at all the other reasons to follow the simpler "each turn engage or pick new target" interpretation:</em></p><p><em>1. D&D Experience issues are addressed without limiting to immediate engagement</em></p><p><em>2. Negating Divine Challenge remote enemies negates the paladin's defender role</em></p><p><em>3. This isn't an abuse of the rules any more than other perfectly legal tactics</em></p><p><em>5. DMG "say yes" advice</em></p><p><em>7. Game focus on movement</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="LokiDR, post: 4375021, member: 6239"] Again, you are applying the ability recursively. "You mark the target. You must engage the target before the end of your turn." is clear and doesn't run over rounds. You DC and engage. The next round, you can pick a new target and the second choice, "On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target." keeps the ability going. This is essentially your ruling and the verbiage could very clearly support you. It does not and we have recursive application of the definition. Even simpler, the verbiage could say "On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target [I]and engage them[/I]." The lack of these simple phrases implies you are working too hard at interpretation. By your reading, it expires if you fail to engage the target by the end of the round. Do you see the difference? The ability says "[B]or[/B]", you say "[B]and[/B]". Isn't this clearly different than the ability states? Again, it is clear the ability can only be used once a round. Why do you insist the ability expires before I have a chance to make the choice of engage or pick different target? First off, Lay on Hands doesn't have any effect that lasts from round to round so it's an improper example. Second, I am reading from the beginning: You mark the target. "You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use the power against another target, or you fail to engage the target." Until that choice is made, the mark remains. Again, why doesn't "fail to engage" apply the instant I am not engaged, such as shifting away? [i] Yes, the previous challenge must be resolved first: you challenged a different target. Ok, the first DC is done. Now we work on the second target. He is marked until I mark another target or fail to engage. There's a lot of semantics in your argument. Lets set that aside for a moment and look at all the other reasons to follow the simpler "each turn engage or pick new target" interpretation: 1. D&D Experience issues are addressed without limiting to immediate engagement 2. Negating Divine Challenge remote enemies negates the paladin's defender role 3. This isn't an abuse of the rules any more than other perfectly legal tactics 5. DMG "say yes" advice 7. Game focus on movement[/i] [/QUOTE]
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