Divine Challenge at the end of your turn

[Pielorinho]

The Divine Challenge is on page 91. As a minor action, the paladin marks an enemy. My question is regarding this text:

On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can't use divine challenge on your next turn.

Does this mean that if I move, attack kobold 1, and divine challenge kobold 2 (who's two squares away), the divine challenge has no effect except to keep me from using DC next turn? Or does it mean that my very next action must be to attack or to move?

I'm inclined to the first interpretation, but figured I'd get other folks' input.

Daniel

 

[Mort_Q]

I'd allow the second interpretation. The rules are meant to prevent cheap tactics like marking and running. As long as you're not being... un-Paladin-like, let it go.

 

[Tonester]

Which Kobold did the Paladin Challenge the turn prior? If it was Kobold 1, then yes, the Paladin could use Divine Challenge again against Kobold 2 this turn since the Paladin did engage (attack or end turn adjacent to) the target he had challenged the turn prior (Kobold 1).

After ending his turn by challenging Kobold 2, if he does not engage Kobold 2 his next turn or challenge a new creature his next turn, he is unable to use Divine Challenge for 1 turn and whichever creature that is currently marked is no longer marked.

 

[Pielorinho]

I'd allow the second interpretation. The rules are meant to prevent cheap tactics like marking and running. As long as you're not being... un-Paladin-like, let it go.

I had it come up in a game where the player was doing something like that: marking an enemy fighting an ally, an enemy he couldn't get to, in order to punish it for continuing to fight that ally. I didn't much like the feel of it, but wanted to make sure I wasn't being stingy with the rules in preventing him from doing it.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Which Kobold did the Paladin Challenge the turn prior? If it was Kobold 1, then yes, the Paladin could use Divine Challenge again against Kobold 2 this turn since the Paladin did engage (attack or end turn adjacent to) the target he had challenged the turn prior (Kobold 1).

After ending his turn by challenging Kobold 2, if he does not engage Kobold 2 his next turn or challenge a new creature his next turn, he is unable to use Divine Challenge for 1 turn and whichever creature that is currently marked is no longer marked.

Hmm, I see what you're saying: I wasn't paying enough attention to "or challenge a different target" in the quoted material. Assume that he'd not challenged anyone previously. Does that make a difference?

I'd think it doesn't. And given your post, I'm inclined to reverse my position and allow this tactic.

Daniel

 

[AverageTable]

Does this mean that if I move, attack kobold 1, and divine challenge kobold 2 (who's two squares away), the divine challenge has no effect except to keep me from using DC next turn?

Yes, this first interpretation is correct.

Remember that the Divine Challenge persists until the paladin specifically challenges a different target or fails to engage the challenged target.

The phrase "you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target" does not mean that challenging a different target by itself is sufficient to meet the condition. Rather, this caveat is included to account for cases where the paladin challenged a target on the previous turn (and did, indeed, engage it that turn), is still challenging it at the start of his current turn (because the challenge persists until he ends it or fails to engage), but the paladin wishes to use this turn to challenge and engage a different target on this second turn.

For example:

Turn 1: The paladin challenges Orc A and engages Orc A (by attacking this orc or ending his turn adjacent to this orc).

Turn 2: Because the paladin did engage Orc A on Turn 1, he is still engaging Orc A at the start of Turn 2. He now has two options for how to spend Turn 2 without losing his Divine Challenge ability on Turn 3. He can either:

(a) engage Orc A once more on Turn 2. This will meet the requirements and cause him to still be challenging Orc A at the start of Turn 3.

or

(b) use Divine Challenge on a different target, say Orc B, and engage Orc B on this same turn. He will then still be challenging Orc B at the start of Turn 3.

He cannot, however, do the following:

(c) use his standard and move actions for other unrelated things, and then end his turn by using his minor action to challenge Orc B.

If he could do this, it would open up the same abuse that Divine Challenge was rewritten to avoid - challenging a target and running away. Observe:

Paladin Turn 1: The paladin does something or other and then challenges Orc A (without ending Turn 1 adjacent to Orc A).

Orc A Turn 1: Orc A is challenged and cannot attack anyone but the paladin without taking damage. He is forced to either move to the paladin (possibly taking opportunity attacks in the process) or waste his turn doing virtually nothing (or suffering automatic damage).

Paladin Turn 2: The paladin begins this turn still challenging Orc A. He thens spends this turn completely ignoring Orc A. He ends this turn by using Divine Challenge on Orc B (whom he has also been completely ignoring). If we allow the explotive interpretation of "or challenge a different target", then the paladin has fully satisfied this requirement.

Orc B Turn 2: Orc B is in the same situation that Orc A previously was. He either moves to the paladin who has been ignoring him or wastes his turn doing virtually notihing.

Paladin Turn 3: The paladin begins this turn still challenging Orc B. He then spends this turn completely ignoring Orc B. He ends this turn by using Divine Challenge on Orc C.

Repeat.

Long story short: The paladin must engage a target on the same turn he challenges that target or the challenge will end and he will lose use of Divine Challenge for a turn.

 

[LittleElvis]

Long story short: The paladin must engage a target on the same turn he challenges that target or the challenge will end and he will lose use of Divine Challenge for a turn.

And of course it goes without saying that you can "engage" a target by simply ending your turn adjacent to it.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I would agree that a paladin must attack or end the turn next to their target or lose the DC for a turn.

 

[AverageTable]

And of course it goes without saying that you can "engage" a target by simply ending your turn adjacent to it.

Correct. He needs to do at least one, but not necessarily both, of the following:

(a) Attack the target. Any form of attack will do.

(b) End his turn in a space adjacent to the target.

The key point is that he must do at least one of these two things in the same turn in which he first challenges the target.

Challenging on Turn 1 with the intent to engage on Turn 2, for example, is not good enough. If he can't also engage on Turn 1, he needs to wait until Turn 2 to challenge.

 

[Pielorinho]

Okay, I've reversed position yet again . I think y'all are right: the intent of Divine Challenge is too easily gamed if you don't have to do anything special on the round in which you issue it.

Daniel