Divine Favor and Persistent Spell

[Frum]

Hi Everybody! This will be my first post, though I have been lurking here for so long it hurts to think about it.

I have a question regarding the spell Divine Favor and the FRCS metamagic feat Persistent Spell. For those familiar with the feat, I was wondering what you think about this combo. I have a fairly long running campaign, with five 12th level PC's, and it is quite a powerful group. They are on the verge of being unbalanced, and the cleric player in the party (the only one) wants to be able to take persistent spell and use it with divine favor, among other spells.

I am worried that this may be too powerful a combination. At his current level, the cleric would gain a +4 luck bonus to attack and damage with weapons. Because luck bonuses are so rare, this is really a bonus that would stack with everything the character currently has, and potentially would ever have. Persistence would make the spell last all day, so he would cast in the morning and be a lucky fighting machine 'till next morning. I know that persistent spell adds four levels to the spell, but I am not sure that there are any 5th (or even 6th!) level spells that could cause as much of a problem as this one.

So, I am looking for advice on whether to allow it or not. The campaign is in a homebrew world, so I accept only PHB feats unless the players get special permission. I want to be able to run the campaign as I have been, with perhaps a few tweaks, and still have the characters balanced with one another. The cleric might become too strong with access to this feat, though, as he would likely use it, later, with divine power and righteous might.

Any advice would be appreciated, but please try to keep the "persistent spell is broken" rants to a minimum, and keep in mind that I do not want to spend all of my time trying to keep up with Cleric Lucky. Opinions?

 

[Orco42]

That is not broken.

Presistant Time Stop... now that is broken.

 

[James McMurray]

The cleric in my campaign has used persistant spell for this before and it hasn't caused a lot of problems. What is the party makeup? If there is a dearth of fighter-types, having the cleric able to hold the front line is a major necessity, and this combo greatly enhances his ability to hurt people in combat.

 

[Crothian]

Do you have opponents use dispel magic? Do that a few times, he'll think twice about using it all the time.

Personally, I don't mind this. It doesn't give him more attacks, and he does not have the defensive abilities to last in combat as long as a fighter can.

To get this he has to spend to feats (extend and persistant) of the 5 feats he gets (6 if human). That's a big comitment for a attack and damge bonus that can easily be dispelled.

Another thing you can do is tone down combat. Or challenge them with creatures with DR the cleric can't get through. THat is a little mean, but it can be done.

Personally, the spell flinging of the Sorcerer was more unblancing then Persistant Divine Focus in any of my games.

 

[James McMurray]

DR the cleric can't get through? If he's got +4 from Divine Favor, he also has +4 from Grater Magic weapon, which will last for at least a day if extended.

 

[Crothian]

DR the cleric can't get through? If he's got +4 from Divine Favor, he also has +4 from Grater Magic weapon, which will last for at least a day if extended.

Ya, but only if he thinks to do that. And if he is you still hit him with a dispel magic or you watch him follishly use up all his spells in preperation.

 

[Frum]

Clever Players

Thanks for all the replies.

There are 2 sorcerers, 1 cleric, 1 paladin, and a psion in the party, all human. There are 2 cohorts, also (1 level lower), a fighter and a fighter/cleric.

I like the idea of using dispel magic (and I have already done so in some sessions). My problem is that as a solution, dispel magic and magic dead areas get stale, and, moreover, the player feels singled out. Persistent spell does cost 2 feats to take, though, and feats for clerics are in short supply.

My players are simply too clever when it comes to combat. The cleric player is especially prepared; every day, he has the character cast (extended) bull's strength, endurance, magic vestment, and greater magic weapon; add divine favor to the mix, and you have a very dangerous character. Sure, it takes some of his spells for the day, but clerics get quite a few spells, especially when the character's high wisdom comes in to play. I just think that it might be too much, and that this character might outshine the others, especially the paladin.

Good to see that someone has an example of a character in their campaign who has done this and has not ruined the campaign. Don't get me wrong; combat is only about half (or less) of what we do in a typical game session, but the balance of it is important to the cohesion of the players, if not the characters. 1 uber character could cause problems.

Anyone (or anything) else?

 

[Crothian]

Re: Clever Players

I like the idea of using dispel magic (and I have already done so in some sessions). My problem is that as a solution, dispel magic and magic dead areas get stale, and, moreover, the player feels singled out. Persistent spell does cost 2 feats to take, though, and feats for clerics are in short supply.

My problems as a DM is that using the same extended and persistant spells every day gets stale. So, if he wants to use a boring routine then you can do the same thing.

Another option is try to put in situations where the cleric would need to use his spells more. THis way for spending all the spells, he will run out and the situation will be hardier becasue of it.

Throw them against evil clerics that are doing the exact same thing.

 

[James McMurray]

With him using so many spell slots, what do they do for healing if they have several fights in a row?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

There is a very, very simple strategy for dealing with characters that top off with extended and persistent spells: do not let them have a chance to sleep.

"You have 72 hours to save the princess and every minute counts!" type scenarios.

Or put them in a tight situation where they can't get more than a single hour of sleep because of harassing attacks.

Lots of variations.

I can guarantee you that burning 5 meaty spell slots so hastily won't look quite so clever when he is depleted the next day. The third day will be a hoot if he doesn't adjust tactics.

A lot of spellcaster tactics that look overpowered, like Hasting to toss dual Fireballs every round, are balanced by the strategic costs of the uncertainty and efficiency. Do they know at the beginning of the day how much fighting theyare going to do? If you only let the PCs fight at times of their choosing you are giving spellcasting characters a big edge.

Another little tidbit: Area dispels are extremely efficient against Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon. You potentially knock down a spell on him, one on his sword, one on his armor, and one on his shield. Plus everyone else in the party in they fall within the AoE.

Prepped 12th level characters are extremely dangerous and the NPCs know this. You can always toss in an extra 6th level spellcaster as an enemy into the mix just for the purpose of tossing Dispels. That will yield a minuscule increase in xp and treasure in your encounters at those lofty levels, but will occasionally throw a wrench into their tactics. A 6th level caster might only have a ~20% chance of knocking down a spell. But he has a good chance to get 4, 8, maybe more rolls if he can get multiple PCs.