Divine Metamagic Feat

[Bauglir]

Actually, my biggest problem with the DMM feats is not that clerics can use turn attempts (often freebies) to get metamagic, but that they can do it on the fly. I'm not going to touch the lack of level cap... Houserule #1: you can only use a DMM on a spell N levels lower than your maximum

It's the spontaneous part. The big trick of a Sorcerer is spontaneous metamagic: 1 full round action. Now clerics can do it as a Standard. Wizards have to _memorize_ metamagic, but not clerics.

I'm hoping this will get dealt with when Complete Arcane comes out, but I do _not_ want clerics outshining the wizards/sorcs when it comes to spellcasting.

Oh, and add Divine Spell Power to that list. Nope, clerics don't get to boost spell power if mages can't.

In the MiniHB there are 'Sudden Metamagic' feats which allow you to spontaneously (with no spell level increase) apply metamagic to one of your spells once a day - prerequisite is any metamagic feat.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, but the sudden metamagic feats are also judged by usefulness.

Compare Sudden Quicken to Divine Metamagic: Quicken, and you know what I mean!

Bye
Thanee

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Yeah, but the sudden metamagic feats are also judged by usefulness.

Compare Sudden Quicken to Divine Metamagic: Quicken, and you know what I mean!

Bye
Thanee

And even these feats have their issues. I remember the debates on how to break scorching ray at low levels (and higher levels) with these feats.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

I am curious, do you DM a game?

I sure do. There goes that theory...

I ask because a player usually doesn't see the game from all sides - just from behind his character sheet. He doesn't realize that if a new, more powerful book is brought in for the PCs, then the DM either has to accept that the PCs are more powerful than all the NPCs and whatnot previously prepared, or the DM must go back and rework all of those NPCs and whatnot to account for the new powerlevel of the PCs.

First off, the new books are not "more powerful". There's some crazy stuff in all of them, but it's always an option to use them. You seem like you have this mindset that if you allow even one thing from a book, you are forced to throw the doors and allow everything in that book as well. I have a very watchful eye for balance issues, because I want everyone playing a game I run to enjoy it and not be outshined by others (that's why I tone down 3.5 dwarves, clerics, and druids; I don't believe in juicing things up just so more people play them). Therefore, I will allow balanced material from virtually any source.

I'm also not sure when I gave off this "I need new toys" aura, but it's pretty annoying that I'm lumped with that group because I think it's fair to consider new feats and "toys" on a case-by-case basis.

That's alot of work for someone with a rich and detailed world.

Come on. I'm sure one of your cleric PCs taking Augment Healing or maybe Reach Spell is going to cause you to rework every NPC in your 'rich and detailed world'. That's just silly. These feats I mentioned are not "ratcheting up the power levels" as you put it. It's just another (balanced) option to use, and if a player wants to use a balanced option, why restrict it? If someone wants to use something non-core in my game, I look at it, and if it raises my eyebrows I check it out on some message boards for discussions (very much like this one right here, as a matter of fact), and reserve the right to yank the toy in question if it causes problems. Before the WotC errata on Divine Metamagic it was right out the window in any game I ran. There is NO WAY you could have convinced me that the feat was balanced, but I'd still allow other feats from this book. I'm just not convinced by your anti-wotc sentiments.

I fully agree with you that Divine Metamagic is just not feasible. It's a cool idea, really, but it is not balanced, even with the errata. If it was printed as it was errata'd I may have playtested it, who knows. Here's what's really funny to me, though: not everything in the core is balanced. Druids get Flame Strike at level 7. That is CRAZINESS. In fact, most metamagic imbalances are caused by spells that are just too freaking powerful for their level, such as magic missile, flame strike, etc.

So there you are. I guess my point is that while I agree that DMM is not balanced properly, throwing out entire books because you don't like 2 or 3 things in them is very silly when the core rules are not in perfect balance themselves.

 

[Bauglir]

Yeah, but the sudden metamagic feats are also judged by usefulness.

Compare Sudden Quicken to Divine Metamagic: Quicken, and you know what I mean!

Bye
Thanee

Perhaps, but quicken seems to be the only sudden mm feat with particularly harsh prerequisites (note: It's 1AM and I only scanned over them quickly ).

Someone could for example easily take Empower spell, and Sudden Maximize spell. Then once a day at level 10 they could launch an empowered, sudden maximized fireball for 5d6+60 (or about 77 damage on average).

Now, assuming a CON of 14 or so, a 10th level wizard might have around 45 hit points. A 10th level fighter with 16 CON should be around 85..

Better make that save.

 

[Marshall]

Marshall: To see how ... let's say it nicely... irrelevant your arguments are: Exchange Maximize with Empower.

And? The arguments still hold, at least until you run into the level cap. Even then we're talking about what is arguably the weakest set of spells in the game, direct-damage dealers.

Any ability that allows a PC to combine his chars ability in one big bad attack is usually balance threatening. See 3.0 Power Critical. Plus spirited charge, lance, rhino hide, smite evil, true strike, Divine might, Divine Favor...

Doesnt have a chance of happening in this case. The best you are gonna get is applying MM to an already MM spell. Not a real problem, since the spells should still be coming out of a slot appropriate to its powerlevel.
Heck, try combining DMM with a Sudden MM feat...but you'd better get something good outta that investment.

 

[Thanee]

Better make that save.

Good advice there!

However, Sudden is only 1/day, that's a pretty big limit.

Bye
Thanee

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

So there you are. I guess my point is that while I agree that DMM is not balanced properly, throwing out entire books because you don't like 2 or 3 things in them is very silly when the core rules are not in perfect balance themselves.

There are more than 2 or 3 things wrongs with Complete Divine.

Good advice there!

However, Sudden is only 1/day, that's a pretty big limit.

Bye
Thanee

Not for an NPC it isn't.

 

[Thanee]

I don't build NPCs like that. That's metagaming.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Bauglir]

Good advice there!

However, Sudden is only 1/day, that's a pretty big limit.

Bye
Thanee

At the same level of investment, divine maximize is once per day too. It would take a charisma of 20 to do it twice.