Divine Metamagic

[Nail]

The wizard, druid, and bard. Duh!

If you've got three spell-casters already in your back-field, and yer short up front, then yer pro'ly right.

....barring the druid's propensity to wildshape into combat animals, or the bard's lack of battlefield control spells, or.........

A cleric is way more useful (IMHO) in back.

 

[Mistwell]

Reach Spell plus Chain Spell = yummy chained buff/healing goodness.

 

[Veril]

Level 1, Human Cleric.
Take Quicken as a feat.
Then take Sudden Extend (or in fact any other Sudden feat of your choice, except for Sudden Quicken, which you cannot take because the requirements are for loads of Sudden's). Personally I like Extend, clerics get a lot of good spells with relativly short durations, being able to double those durations at 1st level is a big benefit. A 'Sudden' metamagic lets you do something extra at 1st level - as abilities are generally so limited that is a big boost.

At 3rd level take Divine Metamagic and apply it to that nice quicken feat you have. Ohhh, now you can quicken a spell, although it does cost 5 turn attempts.

At 6th level take Extra Turning.

If you don't like quicken you could just as easily take another feat at 1st level (Empower or Maximise)

 

[Mistwell]

Might as well just go with the full Cheater of Mystra build...


http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=248239

 

[TheGogmagog]

IOW, if your Clr is up there on the front line swinging, who's in back casting the buffs, battle-field controls, enemy supressors, medic-magic, etc spells?

The campaign I am plaing in has two clerics, one greatsword wielding one that can match our barbarian's damage [Disclaimer]For 15 rounds a day after two rounds of prep, twice a day, Martial weapon proficiency greatsword and Power attack feat required, subject to dispel and local restrictions[/Disclaimer].

Oh, to get back on topic, what book are the sudden feats?

 

[Liquidsabre]

Oh, to get back on topic, what book are the sudden feats?

First appeared in the Miniatures Handbook but were reprinted in Complete Arcane.

 

[Crosswind]

Whoa, hold on, wait a minute.

You're telling me that a 7th level human cleric who spent all his feats (Extra Turning, Persistent, Extend, Divine Metamagic) can have a single persistent spell on him? Hot diggity dog!

Let's be serious for a moment. Is this a good combination? Yes, it is. But does it compare to a real meleer? No, it doesn't. The real meleer (Take your pick of prestige class at 5) does a ton more damage, with power attack, leap attack, whatever you like.

What's the worry? That a cleric is going to out-melee a fighter? Not a chance in hell. He can only make 1 spell persistent...so if he wants anything other than Divine Power cast on him, he has to waste time casting on himself while the meleer is fighting. How long do your combats last? Ours tend to go for about 5 to 10 rounds, usually closer to 10. The cleric would often be better off just heading in immediately...even though with that he is still not as effective as the warrior.

Now, I'll grant you that once you start bringing 6th and 7th level spells into this, the balance argument becomes moot. But this is true for all spellcasters - as soon as level hits 12 or so, spellcasters' ability to work outside the box is triumphant.

Divine Metamagic isn't that bad. You're spending a lot of feats for it.

-Cross

 

[Mistwell]

Whoa, hold on, wait a minute.

You're telling me that a 7th level human cleric who spent all his feats (Extra Turning, Persistent, Extend, Divine Metamagic) can have a single persistent spell on him? Hot diggity dog!

I'm telling you a human Cleric of the Pantheon who chooses Planning & Undeath as his domains (which gets him Extend and Extra Turning for free) and takes Persistant and Divine Metamagic and gets one or more Nightsticks (from Libris Mortis - cheap item that grants 4 extra turning attempts per day, and they apparently stack with each other) and who uses this incredibly abusive combination to persist spells like Divine Favor and Rightous Might and Divine Power is WAY WAY WAY better than a your fighter - and a game breaker.

Cleric builds that are based around Persistant Spell and Divine Metamagic don't stop with just one persistant spell. It's like an addiction. Once your BAB is equal to a fighters from one persistant spell, you don't stop there. You then stack on the damage bonuses that were meant to make you powerful for one fight (or part of one fight) and make them all-day every-day.

If you don't believe me, I'd be happy to work out some theoretical builds with you and show you how a Cleric can and will be a better melee fighter than a Fighter of the same level, at almost any level, if you allow this combination.

 

[Crosswind]

I'm as familiar with Cheater of Mystra style builds as you are (ok, maybe not, but close?)...

But those break the game at a point where it is already damned broken in favor of spellcasters, and persistant doesn't do much to change that. Honestly, if there's a level 13 cleric in the party and he wants to go swing like a level 13 fighter without feats? Go for it. Be my guest! Rather have him doing that than casting level 7 spells.

I know it's kind of unfair of me to define the game as broken in favor of spellcasters beyond level 12, but if we want to get into that, I think I can hold my own. I will concede anything you wish about Divine Metamagic being too powerful at high levels.

Let's establish the following:

1.) Up until Divine Power, persistable spells are mediocre at best. From levels 1 through 6, there's no chance that the cleric touches a fighter in melee, 'cause there's just nothing that's particularly good to persist.

2.) At level 7, tides change somewhat, because you can persist Divine Power. If you spend 40% of your character wealth (7,500 out of a recommended 19,000) on a nightstick, and you put a good stat (16) in charisma, you can persist Divine Favor as well. This nets you a fighter's AB, HP, and better strength.

Now. With this character tailor-made to exploit Divine Metamagic...You will probably end up fighting with a strength 2 or 4 higher than the fighter (unless you wish to spend time during each combat sipping a glass of chilled wine and buffing yourself while everybody else fights), 1 or 2 more points of AB, etcetera.

He has 7 feats and 7,500 gold, if he's a straight fighter, to make this up. If we decide to tweak that fighter for damage, he will quite simply lambaste this poor creation in terms of combat prowess. And if we tweak him for other things (battlefield control with spiked chain tripping and AoOs?), he will dominate combat in that fashion.

Understand: I'm not saying that Divine Metamagic is bad.

I'm saying that the tradeoffs you make (Undeath and Planning have really quite terrible domain spells, at least at earlier levels), and the feat expenditure, just aren't really worth the ability to be a fighter without feats.

-Cross

 

[Shin Okada]

But that cleric is not a fighter without feats. A fighter without feats with way better will save and plentiful of spells.