Divine Versus Man-Made (or Natural Versus Artificial)

MadMaxim

First Post
I just got to thinking about many of the story-lines in Japanese CRPGs like Final Fantasy VII and animes like Fullmetal Alchemist where the protagonists are caught in a war between man-made creations and divine/natural forces and they almost always come out on the side of nature. Those are some pretty heavy topics to tackle in games and cartoons, but I know the Japanese are fond of doing that and it really makes wonder about a lot of things whether things are right or wrong in the greater scope of things. I think Eberron is sort of on to that idea with warforged and magic as science kind of thing, but I was wondering whether anyone has ever run so heavily themed campaigns or at least adventures where perhaps the characters have to pick a side whether they're on the side of the gods/natural forces or believe that magic/science has the answer for everything? How would such rather heavy moral choices affect a campaign and what mood would it be serving? Is a game like Dungeons & Dragons even capable of doing this (in my mind Eberron coul very pull that off). I know it's a rather philosophical question, but I'd like to hear your opinions and experiences on the matter :)
 

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Well MM, we do more or less exactly that in my setting, though in a complicated way, and it's been running about ten years or so.

Here is the set-up:

In our world, the human world, there is no magic, but there are miracles.

In the other world, the world of elves (though they aren't called that) and so forth, there are no miracles but there is magic.

Then it gets kinda tricky.

Magic in the other world is extremely dangerous, especially at higher levels and causes all kinds of side-effects. (Like let's say nuclear based technologies that are not properly contained.) Yet most rely upon it to some degree or another and want it to continue that way. Religion in the other world is very simplified and there are no clerics. Many have a belief in God, but no real concept of the idea of a relationship to God.

However the other world has discovered our world and has come into contact with two things. Divine magic in the form of miracles (Thaumaturgy) and the idea of a personal God (through contact with Christians, Jews, and Muslims). Now the leader (a priest-king, though they have a different concept of a priest) of the most powerful Elven kingdom on that world (based in the capital of Samarkand) desires to convert and become a Christian (he already has secretly), really, really liking the idea of a personal God, but even more controversially (to his own people and subjects, not to mention his allies and enemies) he wants to replace what he considers to be extremely dangerous arcane magic with Divine magic as the source of power for his kingdom. Now many in that world are both directly and indirectly opposed to anything regarding either human religion or the idea of replacing arcane magic with thaumaturgy and miracle working. They consider arcane magic dangerous but far more reliable than the idea of miracles from God. Then again you have a radical group within that world that is coming to the idea that arcane magic is destroying nature and the world and that it must be replaced. Some are looking to the idea of what we would call science and technology (though more like magical or arcane science), some to the idea of God and miracles, some to both. So you have a lot of political intrigue, as well as social and sometimes racial intrigue (the giants, a character race in that setting, are good at building and want arcane magic gone, the Eladarin despise the idea of anything human and are very pro-magic even though it often causes disruptions in nature - they are also very pro-nature) regarding magic, what it is doing to the world, and what to do about it. At the same time you have pro-human and pro-human religious elements and groups, and anti-human and anti-human religious groups. And all that all of that entails.

On our world (and the setting is Constantinople circa 800 AD) there is no magic and arcane matters are considered either outright evil or suspect at best. However some in our world have discovered that the other world exists because our world has been invaded from time to time by creatures and monsters escaping from that world to ours. Following these invasions have been earthquakes, and plagues and various troubles. So there are people in our world who distrust and dislike anything dealing with the other world and consider creatures of it to be Satanic or demonic, or at the very least dangerous and untrustworthy. (Many of the monsters that have escaped that world into ours are mutated, for lack of a better word, creatures that were misshapen or twisted by exposure to powerful magics.) On the other hand many on our world, like the emperor and the Patriarch of Constantinople consider this other world to be a source of potential rescue and a possible agency of God (and of the End of Time), and some believe the Eleven Priest King of this other world to be none other than Prester John. At the same time some creatures from the other world have come to our world and are seeking to subvert it by teaching those willing how to practice and master arcane forces. But arcane magic has some of the same bad side effects here as it does on their world (powerful magics for instance tend to kill any animals caught nearby or exposed to it), and indeed that is the hope of those coming to our world to subvert it. Because they wish to kill off any contact between the two worlds and discourage human ideas about a personal God from infiltrating their world.

So it's kind of a complicated web of conflicts, competing interests, and even alliances between arcane magic and thaumaturgy (miracle working), technology, human society and non-human society, our world and the other world, different religious ideas, different political systems, different races, and how all of these things might work together or seek to destroy each other either to fulfill or try to subvert the will of God, and/or to either improve or corrupt the world and nature. Couple that with the fact that both worlds are twins of each other - they are georghaically identical, but are inhabited by different creatures, plants, and life forms and those who know about the existence of the other cannot possibly think that events going on between the two worlds are just a matter of coincidence and happenstance. This adds another conspiratorial angle, I guess you would say.

I never tell the players whose side I am on, or what outcomes I favor (indeed I can see the various viewpoints of everyone involved, even the poor monsters created by accidental or experimental exposure to uncontrolled magic - the only ones I don't favor are the villains after their own gains) or what moral aspects I want them to pursue. Indeed I created the setting and write the adventures with the express intention of giving them very multi-faceted moral dilemmas which they must settle and decide for themselves. I intentionally make it very hard to know what is right or wrong, and if right is all right or if wrong is all wrong, or if it is not more likely everybody is some right, and everybody is some wrong. But in the end that is for them to decide.

Now I've had players tell me I've created a whole new game, and maybe I have to some extent. I just consider it an unusual and semi-historical, semi-real world, sort of metaphysical D&D setting. It's not a kill things and take their stuff setting, but I see no reason or restriction of why the game can't do this kind of thing.

By the way, one of the best things to come out of 4E to me were character classes that were alien enough to be really completely unlike human character classes. So I've taken a lot of the 4E character class elements and adopted those elements for my non-human character classes.
 
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Wow, that sounds pretty sweet, Jack7 :) I haven't played that much 4th edition yet, but I think it's easier to do this kind of thing now that Clerics and Paladins aren't automatically tied to specific alignments like they were in 3rd edition, so it's easier for the political intrigue to sound plausible, because it's possible to have different sects within and organized religion, but your setting seriously sounds like it asks the players and their characters some very tough questions of which there perhaps isn't a completely good answer or perhaps an entirely evil answer either. I'm not saying that it has to be that way all the time, but I think it would be refreshing to ask the players and their characters some moral questions, trying to pick the lesser of two evils, but not knowing for certain, whether it is or not.
 

Wow, that sounds pretty sweet, Jack7 I haven't played that much 4th edition yet, but I think it's easier to do this kind of thing now that Clerics and Paladins aren't automatically tied to specific alignments like they were in 3rd edition, so it's easier for the political intrigue to sound plausible, because it's possible to have different sects within and organized religion, but your setting seriously sounds like it asks the players and their characters some very tough questions of which there perhaps isn't a completely good answer or perhaps an entirely evil answer either. I'm not saying that it has to be that way all the time, but I think it would be refreshing to ask the players and their characters some moral questions, trying to pick the lesser of two evils, but not knowing for certain, whether it is or not.

That's a good point MM.
We did away with alignments a long time ago, other than basic good and evil.
Sometimes we address questions of law versus lawlessness, but not like book alignments. So it makes it easier to ask hard questions without easy answers.
And sometimes it is not the lesser of two evils, but the greater of two goods that can be equally tough to answer.


but your setting seriously sounds like it asks the players and their characters some very tough questions of which there perhaps isn't a completely good answer or perhaps an entirely evil answer either.

Thats' the reason I created the setting. Originally it started as a setting allowing people to play their own real religion, and because of my interest in history in general and the Byzantine Empire in particular.

But yeah, as far as I'm concerned I primarily wrote it with the idea of having a setting much like real life, where there is good and evil but the real dilemma is that people are not always certain of the best way to address the complex circumstances of good and evil in which they find themselves. Or even in some situations what is the real dividing line between the two.

By the way I went back and re-edited my original reply so it made more sense.
Sorry about all those errors. I hate Microsoft grammar and writing programs.
 
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Frequently, one of the major themes of a world I create will be that arcane and divine magic are opposite sides and never the twain shall meet (to the point that you cannot have an arcane and divine caster). There is an irreconcilable difference between the two: the Divine side says 'Thy will be done' and the Arcane side says 'My will be done'. So, not only was D&D able to handle such a thing, it was practically made for it.
 

Frequently, one of the major themes of a world I create will be that arcane and divine magic are opposite sides and never the twain shall meet (to the point that you cannot have an arcane and divine caster). There is an irreconcilable difference between the two: the Divine side says 'Thy will be done' and the Arcane side says 'My will be done'. So, not only was D&D able to handle such a thing, it was practically made for it.
Yeah, I think you're right. The differences between arcane and divine can be a good setup for some moral questions. Isn't that also a lot how Darksun is working? I've never played in that setting, but doesn't arcane magic drain the life from the land to power an arcanist's spells? And something about clerics being complete lunatics and serving some elemental lords?
 

There is an irreconcilable difference between the two: the Divine side says 'Thy will be done' and the Arcane side says 'My will be done'. So, not only was D&D able to handle such a thing, it was practically made for it.

That's an interesting observation. I don't completely agree with it in-game but I do very much agree that there is a natural and built in tension between the two disciplines and their various ideals of power and "magic," what it is used for, and why.

I wouldn't mind seeing a thread on the subject.
 

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