Divine Vigor or Divine Shield?

[FreeTheSlaves]

I never understood the rationale behind that FAQ ruling. The DotF made it quite clear it was a standard action and then WotC u-turns unnecessarily to make it a free action; what was the issue?

When I realized that a free action 3.0 divine might was superior to weapon specialization I felt embarrassed using it (and lording it over the fighter a level earlier to boot). I think it was about the time of DotF that I started to become gradually disenchanted with the 3ed supplements.

BoVD excepted.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

When I realized that a free action 3.0 divine might was superior to weapon specialization

This may be so on a feat vs. feat basis. Though in the case of our game, the fighter will be out-damaging me by 5 points with every swing even so, so I don't think my DM's allowance has caused the paladin to become overpowered. The gulf will only widen as the fighter picks up Greater Weapon Focus (I don't know if I'll even be able to afford plain old Weapon Focus), Greater Weapon Specialization, and puts all his level points and gold into strength, while I split between strength and charisma.

At the end of the day, the fighter's still going to be better at beating things down, especially with his greataxe and Power Attack's 2-for-1 ratio, compared to my longsword. 3.0 Divine Might does give me a leg up on the cleric, though.

Still, the question remains: Shield or Vigor? I should have enough turn attempts to use either one. And in 3.5 they are both standard actions to activate (I won't be pursuing anything else 3.0. The DM was generous enough allowing Divine Might,) so the action cost is the same.

10' of movement and temp hit points....or a sacred bonus to AC?

Although I've downplayed the movement bonus, I really do like the hit points. Another way to self-heal, even temporarily, is always good. Especially when you can do it proactively. But on the other side of it, a higher AC can keep me from taking damage in the first place.

By 6th-level, I'm hoping (though not guaranteed) to have a +2 Cloak of Charisma, which means a +5 sacred bonus to AC. Is that more or less valuable than +12 temporary hp and +10' speed?

 

[Darklone]

The FAQ said it's "not an action". IMHO, the answer pretty clearly showed that the guy who gave the answer thought the question was: "What kind of action is it during the duration?" e.g. concentration or whatever.

Yupp, the ruling didn't make sense.

 

[Stalker0]

I'd go with divine shield. From your party description, your going to be the big tank as levels increase and your fighters go more offensive. While the hp is nice, in the long run the +4 AC will save a lot more of them.

Now if with so many people the extra speed would help you all get into combat faster, than go with vigor, but I think shield would be better in this case.

 

[Darklone]

And don't forget: If you are too slow to get into combat and your wizzies forgot to cast a fly on you, get a mighty composite bow, cast Divine Favor and waste the enemies with Divine Might using your bow.

Thought IIRC that wasn't possible in 3.0.

 

[chris7476]

I really hate how all the divive have different mechanics now. The newer WotC books are somewhat inconsistent in their rulings.

Anyway, I heavily revised the divine feats in my campaign. I made them all standard actions but I allow Quicken Turning to be applied to them (once per round). I also make all the divine feats based on your Cha mod for bonus and duration. I also require Extra Turning a req for all of them and grant an additional +1 if you have Imp Turning.

If they use the turning mechanic, why not be consistent with requiring a standard action?

 

[Urbanmech]

Go for Divine Shield. An additional +4-5 SACRED bonus to AC is a huge jump. Having a high AC is great in melee combat, and if you get lucky the 4-5 minute duration can last for more than one fight. If the bad guys can't hit you then you take up less healing resources from the cleric and can last longer in combat. Sure the Half-Orc fighter out damages you but he also must eat up a lot of healing after every fight because he will be hit much more often.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'd go with divine shield. From your party description, your going to be the big tank as levels increase and your fighters go more offensive. While the hp is nice, in the long run the +4 AC will save a lot more of them.

That's what I'm beginning to think as well. Even though the duration is short at first (only 3 rounds at level 6) that can make a huge difference. In a past session during a dungeon battle, the paladin moved into a doorway and basically served as a living wall to keep three beefed-up hobgoblins trapped in another room while the rest of the party cleaned up the enemies in the room we were in. Total Defense helped, but Divine Shield would have been fantastic.

And don't forget: If you are too slow to get into combat and your wizzies forgot to cast a fly on you, get a mighty composite bow, cast Divine Favor and waste the enemies with Divine Might using your bow.

Thought IIRC that wasn't possible in 3.0.

The 3.0 text says you add the bonus "to weapon damage" and does not specify melee or ranged damage either way, so I'd imagine it's possible, unless it was changed somewhere else?

Anyway, I heavily revised the divine feats in my campaign. I made them all standard actions but I allow Quicken Turning to be applied to them (once per round). I also make all the divine feats based on your Cha mod for bonus and duration. I also require Extra Turning a req for all of them and grant an additional +1 if you have Imp Turning.

If they use the turning mechanic, why not be consistent with requiring a standard action?

Well, the first answer that came to mind was "because then it wouldn't be worth as much to paladins, for which the feat was probably designed." But that's just a gut reaction. I do wonder if you haven't weakened the Divine feats a bit too much, though. IMO paladins really needed them to help bring up their strength to a fair level. Smacking extra feat requirements onto them when paladins (and war clerics, but I don't see it as much of a necessity to clerics who have access to Divine Power, Divine Favor at full caster level, and Righteous Might) are a feat-poor class means they aren't going to be taken much, if at all. Which defeats their purpose if they were meant as an option for paladins.

Go for Divine Shield. An additional +4-5 SACRED bonus to AC is a huge jump. Having a high AC is great in melee combat, and if you get lucky the 4-5 minute duration can last for more than one fight. If the bad guys can't hit you then you take up less healing resources from the cleric and can last longer in combat.

Yeah, this does seem the best choice. Though I'd heard so much hype about Divine Vigor on the boards that I wasn't sure. I still may pick it up later, though. One point: the text for 3.5 Divine Shield mentions a duration of 1/2 class level rounds, while you mention minutes. Has the feat been erratta'd somewhere?

Thanks for all the advice guys. I welcome any more comments folks have on either feat or experiences people have had with them.

 

[Darklone]

3.0 Divine Might possible in ranged combat? Kewl.

As for Divine Shield or Divine Vigor: Actually both are a little bit useless for you as long as the barbarian meat tank is target no 1 that dishes out more damage and is easier to hit.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

3.0 Divine Might possible in ranged combat? Kewl.

Yeah. Currently I only have the shortbow I got with my starting equipment package, because I haven't had the money to buy a proper compound longbow. But it's on my list right after full plate armor and a guisarme.

As for Divine Shield or Divine Vigor: Actually both are a little bit useless for you as long as the barbarian meat tank is target no 1 that dishes out more damage and is easier to hit.

Well, so far the half-orc hasn't been any more of a target than the paladin has, though that may be in large part due to how I play the paladin. If there's a dangerous position that needs to be filled (such as blocking a door with three mean looking hobgoblins on the other side,) the paladin makes it his business to be there. And also the DM has so far thrown a lot of critters at us in each combat, so both the fighter and the paladin are usually fighting 3-to-1 or so.

You're right about the damage, though. Even with +4 from Divine Might, the fighter is clearly the damage king. When we face more intelligent foes, they may try to take him out first. Hopefully by then he'll have gotten his full plate as well.