Divine vs. Cosmic vs. etc.

FleshEatingBlackFlutterby · May 18, 2023

I have noticed a lot of abilities that by all logic should be in a different category.
Great Breath, for example, makes more sense as a mere Divine ability due to the costs being so insane. As a Cosmic, I'd almost want it to be able to create life at no cost, but have a cap on what you're capable of creating.

Other abilities like Elusion, Invincibility, etc. that zero out damage with a save are little different from subepic abilities that do the same (Improved Uncanny Dodge, etc.) and should almost be mere feats were it not for them affecting all attacks against you.

Then others, like Doppleganger, Extra Portfolio, etc. are so ridiculously powerful, they should almost be Transcendental.

What changes in ability tiers have you implemented as DMs?

Obly99 · May 18, 2023

Metamartials Maneuvers Feats:

Perform a metamartial maneuver is a standard action and you cannot combine more than 1 maneuver in 1 action.
Death/Disrupting/Obliterating/Stunning Attack: Removed. [they are not funny]
Harmstring/Stunning Attack: You cannot move/are stunned only for 1 round.
Quicken Attack: Removed. [with the use of metamartials maneuver as a standard action it does not work anymore]

Epic Feats:

Abnormality: Removed the strength reduction for the extra arms. [it only complicates the math without fixing its real problems, what's the point of reducing the strength if you can hit and do damage to Dex with 2 feats?]
Amazing Pockets: You can take it only 3 time + 1 time per 2 divine rank above three you have. [everything is fine but there is a limit to the ridiculous]
Malifiecus: Even if you sleep for a very long time you can only give brief, cryptic insights. [no more abuse of sleeping in a demiplane with the Time traits imposed to 1000 years inside to 1 second outside]
Soothsayer: Hightened from Epic Feat to Transcendental Ability and only work against creatures with an equal or lower divine rank. It is countered with Infinite (ability score added to Bluff) or Ultimate Skill Mastery (Bluff). [even the gods can be deceived, you don't throw me in the toilet excellent possibilities of history and roleplay with only a feat]
Sticky Strike: The bonus only goes on unarmed strike.

Divine Abilities:

Cozen: A Will save (DC 20 + deity’s Charisma modifier + deity’s divine rank) negate the steal of the divine ability. This ability can be activated only once per round per opponent. [it’s fun to lose your divine abilities, yes?]
Diseased [Effect]: Making a number of consecutive Fortitude saves equal to the divine rank of the immortal remove the disease (DC 20 + deity’s Constitution modifier + deity’s divine rank).
Even-Handed: Removed the Lawful prerequisite. [There are other classes that go to fists without being monks]
Heavy Handed: Double strength only to unarmed strike, removed the Quivering Palm prerequisite.
High Handed: The bonus only goes on unarmed strike.
Iatric [Effect]: Removed the Lay on Hands prerequisite. [There are other classes that are healer without being paladins]
Lord of Maggots: Removed the ooze traits prerequisite and the divine ability give my Epic version of the template, not the base of the B2 version of PF1.
Lord of Spirit: You do not gain the Rejuvenation ability of the Ghost. [The Ghost Rejuvenation work around the fact that the Ghost want to be destroyed and want to be laid to rest when the mission is completed, if you take this ability is because of the incorporeal and defensive abilities. Unstoppable Rejuvenation is a no-no]
Mime Ability: Hightened from Divine to Cosmic and you must make a Perform check DC (HD of the target + divine rank of the target + ability modifier of the ability duplicated (if no one, Charisma) of the target) for replicate.
Moostruck: Removed the Wisdom prerequisite, add change shape or shapechanger as possible alternative prerequisites to wild shape. The divine ability give my version of the template, not the base version of PF1.
Perfect Body/Mind: Dropped from divine abilities to epic feats but require 30 HD. [a deity gains wish x/day, they are worthless]
Poisonous [Effect]: Frequency 1/round for HD of the immortal; cure a number of consecutive saves equal to the immortal divine rank. Unlike the normal [Effect], a creature that fail the listed saving throw, must make a Fortitude save with the same DC or be exposed to the poison. A Fortitude save DC 20 + immortal’s Constitution modifier + immortal’s divine rank negate for the form without DC (like Hand or Strike).
Precognition: Hightened from Divine to Cosmic but to compensate it not give a rostrum of possible futures but the precise one but always in a smoky way. [the destiny and fate is territory of the Sidereals]
Quantum Effect: Removed the alignment Neutral prerequisite.
Seeking Shot: Hightened from Divine to Cosmic. [Ultimate Weapon Focus is a Transcendental ability, there is no reason for a Divine ability to exist that gives you the same thing once per round]
Soul Stealer: Removed sneak attack prerequisite but a Will save (DC 20 + deity’s Charisma modifier + deity’s divine rank) negate. [Not being able to come back to life in any way when everyone at that level does it without saving throws, that's fun yeah?]
Superior Combat Casting: Your concentration cannot be broken when casting a spell. You do not cast all spells as spell-like abilities. [it was obviously badly written, take out the bat guano for fireball, stingy]
Time Stealer: A Will save (DC 20 + deity’s Charisma modifier + deity’s divine rank) negate.
Uncanny Weapon Focus/Specialization: Removed. [PF1 and the Might system already give them passively]
Undeath: Change to any non-good.
Vampiric Effect: Removed the alignment Evil prerequisite.
Vanguard Fortitude/Reflex/Will: Remove the aura of courage prerequisite. [not only the paladins protect their allies]

Cosmic Abilities:

Abrogate: I hate it with every cell of mine but I recognize that it is fundamental. Still nerfed. Now if an ability gives you multiple effects, you can't select the whole ability but you have to select each part of it separately (like Lord of Blood which gives you the Vampire template, you can't select the Divine/template directly but you have to select each part of it independently, such as Dominate or Children of the Night). However if you target an [Effect] you nullify it in its entirety, you don't have to target every version of it (such as Aura or Breath).
Chronal [Effect]: Dropped from Cosmic to Divine and is 3 years for HD. [an aging ability is totally useless when at these levels they are either all ageless, or with a maximum age that is measured in trillions+ of years.]
Cosmic Superimposition: A Will save (DC 20 + deity’s Charisma modifier + deity’s divine rank) negate the steal of the portfolio. This ability can be activated only once per round per opponent. [it’s not funny]
Create Legacy: Removed the Turn/Rebuke Undead as a prerequisite.
Karmic [Effect]: Removed. [it’s not funny]
Quixotic: Dropped from Cosmic to Divine and reduced the charisma prerequisite to 40. [too weak to be a Cosmic Ability, chose Inner Eye instead)
Redivivus: Removed the Turn/Rebuke Undead as a prerequisite. Can only be used once per day per opponent.
Replicate: You must make a Perform check DC (HD of the target + divine rank of the target + ability modifier of the ability duplicated (if no one, Charisma) of the target) for replicate.
Siphoning [Effect]: Removed. [it’s not funny and I use the Milestone for the Quintessence]
Swarm Shape: Add change shape or shapechanger subtype as possible alternative prerequisites to wild shape.
Thelemic [Effect]: Removed. [it’s not funny]
Transmogrify: You cannot gain more size that your divine rank. [ok to cosplay Asura's Wrath but control yourself]
Vexing [Effect]: A wish which caster make a caster level check DC 11 + HD + divine rank of the immortal who use vexing, remove all the penalty.

Transcendental Abilities:

Astro [Effect]: Removed. [it’s not funny]
Divine Nullification: Replace Abrogate with Nullification for the prerequisite.
Edifying Presence: A Will save (DC 10 + ½ deity’s HD + deity’s Charisma modifier + deity’s divine rank) negate the effect. This ability can be activated only once per round per opponent. [it’s not funny]
Invincibility: Dropped from Transcendental to Divine. [it’s thrash]
Omega [Effect]: Removed. [it’s not funny]
Paradox: This ability can be activated only once per day per opponent.
Rectify: Removed. [with Astro removed, it no longer work]
Sophism: The save is 10 + ½ opponent HD + opponent Cha + opponent divine rank.

Omnific Abilities:

Akashic [Effect]: Removed. [it’s not funny]
Lord of Necessity: Removed. [only my players are the Omega]
Oblivion: They are permanent only to creatures with a lower divine rank of you. [it’s not funny]
Tenth Sense: Removed. [I don't give you a copy of my adventure]

Bootlebat · May 19, 2023

What does "removed [it's not funny]" mean? I'm guessing that it's way too powerful.

Obly99 · May 20, 2023

Bootlebat said:
What does "removed [it's not funny]" mean? I'm guessing that it's way too powerful.

Yes. It's to much powerful that is not fun to play with/again. When I measure and decide on these abilities I always ask myself the question "Will my players and I enjoy having it used against us?" If not, then I nerf it (increases rank, gets nerfed, etc.) or remove it outright.

Upper_Krust · May 20, 2023

A few powers are probably in certain tiers due to mythological circumstances, although I am sure I messed up a bunch. But if Obly is only removing/tweaking 10% of the 500 abilities then I am happy enough I got the other 450 more or less right.

Absent of a lengthy playtest development period, its tricky to get everything right.

Working on the abilities for the 5E book(s) right at the moment and the plan is to weed out the overly complex or problematic powers. Hopefully I will do a better job this time...and Obly will approve of 91% or better.

Bootlebat · Jun 25, 2023

Honestly, I would re-work Chronal [effect] altogether. I would make it do hp damage (not sure how much)+ physical ability score damage (representing the ravages of aging) and have it work on immortals. I think it would still be a cosmic then since it's basically withering effect+ hp damage.