DM depressed about Shapechange

[BSF]

Nerf the physical attacks of the Pit Fiend with a Protection from Evil spell. Even evil folk have reasons to have this available.

Blasphemy/Holy Word are wonderful solutions. Dismissal & Banishment may work as well. Even if you decide that they just send the PC to somewhere on the Prime, there is nothing saying it has to be right where the PCs are currently.

But really, you can point out the disadvantages all day long. In the end, Shapechage is still an impressive spell. It ought to be for 18th level. Don't focus on nerfing it too much, focus on making it relevant for both the advantages & the disadvantages. It is very challenging to use a straight module for a group at that level. The number of options that PCs of near epic levels have available is astounding. You need to tailor these challenges for each group.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Some of the rules there contradict the PHB rules that Campbell quotes. For instance, the size limits have largely been waived for polymorph, ("The assumed form's size can be anything from Fine to Colossal")

Which is in the original writeup of the spell. The first paragraph of polymorph (specifying 'what you can turn into') replaces the first paragraph of alter self.

Otherwise you end up wondering why polymorph adds an additional restriction (no forms smaller than fine) to the lower level spell. This is especially questionable when you realise that:
1) There ARE no forms smaller than fine
2) The additional rule would ONLY affect a caster who was already fine in size

and the rules for equipment resizing have also been made less restrictive:

You mean they were clarified according to the less restrictive view of things.

There are, by the core rules, many ways to interpret the "equipment that is useable remains worn or held".

Campbell - I dunno where you're finding some of these "by the RAW" rulings, but poison is certainly not an inherently evil act. Otherwise the poison spell would be an evil spell...

finally - Frank:

The save DC against the fear aura still uses the sorceror's original charisma. The DC for the save aura is therefore:

19+sorceror's charisma bonus

Which might make it lower.

Also - a critter with a will save of +8 sounds like it would be dogmeat in a 17th level campaign unless it has immunities to mind affecting powers... Just be thankful noone is dominating it.

 

[BSF]

Also - a critter with a will save of +8 sounds like it would be dogmeat in a 17th level campaign unless it has immunities to mind affecting powers... Just be thankful noone is dominating it.

It sounds like this is a stock module so this critter is just one of many meant to provide a little bit of attrition as you work your way through the challenges until you reach the BBEG. It is dogmeat. But it might have done a little damage, or caused you to use a spell while dealing with it.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Nerf the physical attacks of the Pit Fiend with a Protection from Evil spell. Even evil folk have reasons to have this available.

Won't have any effect in this case - protection from evil only hedges out summoned creatures. It doesn't have any effect on those that are "really" here (via planar ally, shapechange etc)

 

[BSF]

That will teach me to rely solely on memory. I must be channeling 1st Ed rules with my assumption that Pro Evil prevents physical contact from Evil critters.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Long post, be warned....

Hello FrankinLondon,

I have two Wizard PCs in my campaign that can cast Shapechage (both are now 20th level). Despite this, we (including myself as DM) still have a lot of fun --and Shapechange makes it funner for everyone.

Here are some of the clarifications, house-rules and ways in which I handle Shapechange IM3.5C:

• The caster’s total Hit Dice (from all classes) count as “creature Hit Dice” for determining the DCs of all Su and Ex abilities gained by Shapechange (in addition to the caster’s ability scores).
• Changes to a Constitution score via Shapechange always affect HP. (The Alter Self wording doesn't contradict this).
• The expiration of limited use abilities (such as 1/day and 3/day Supernatural and Extraordinary abilities), limited resource abilities (like a Guardinal’s Lay On Hands ability) and timed resource abilities (i.e. a Dragon’s Breath Weapon) lasts for the duration of each casting of Shapechange.
• Thus, if a Shapechanged PC becomes an Avoral (a kind of Guardinal) and uses up its Lay on Hands ability to save a fellow PC, he can’t use an Avoral’s LoH ability again –even if the PC changes into something else and then changes back into an Avoral– until the PC recasts Shapechange. Similarly, a Shapechanged PC using a Red Dragon’s Breath Weapon must wait 1d4 rounds to use it again.
• A Balor grants the Vorpal Quality to whatever slashing weapon it wields, much like a Cornugon (Horned Devil) grants the Stun ability to any Spiked Chain it wields.
• In order for a PC to use Shapechange to assume the form of a creature the PC hasn’t encountered before, that PC must make a Knowledge Check against a DC of 20+HD of the form as appropriate. Thus, the DC for a Knowledge: Planes check to become a Cornugon would be (20+15) 35. The Knowledge: Dungeoneering DC to become a Beholder would be (20+11) 31. The player can make one attempt per specific creature per level, and can only retry the check if he spends time learning and studying about the creature in a suitable library, for at least a number of days equal to half the original DC.
• I allow players to assume advanced forms of a creature, but I don’t allow players to bog the game down figuring out an advanced forms stats (they do this ahead of time or they can’t become that creature).

Lastly, anticipate and be ready to get used to the concept of Shapechanged PCs always being at full hit points (Twelve-Headed Hydra form for Fast Healing 22), using bizarre and time consuming tactics (Beholder form to use all its eye rays, including a Telekinesis disarm attempt on your BBEG, or an Air Elemental’s Whirlwind attack), being healers (the aforementioned Guardinal forms), having complete battlefield mobility (Imp form while Hasted for 80’ Fly speed at perfect maneuverability) and access to all energy types (a different Dragon Breath Weapon every round).

The trick I’ve found most useful when planning is to simply imagine how I would use Shapechange to overcome an encounter. It’s also not that hard to bait Shapechanged PCs into overextending themselves (like doing so much damage to a Shapechanged PC --preferably when they’re in a form that can’t cast spells-- that they can’t shapechange into any other form with a low Con score or they’ll die from loss of HP).

Finally, make Shapechanging PCs do all their stat-work (for the forms they’re likely to take) well ahead of time and encourage them to understand how those form’s abilities work.

Good luck with your game!

J. Grenemyer

ps: What module are you running, if you don't mind my asking?

 

[shilsen]

According to RAW poison use is an evil act.

Got a reference to back that up? The only one I can think of is in the paladin description, which says that it is not honorable (a paladin has to "act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth"), but not that it is evil.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

(snip)...The trick I’ve found most useful when planning is to simply imagine how I would use Shapechange to overcome an encounter. It’s also not that hard to bait Shapechanged PCs into overextending themselves (like doing so much damage to a Shapechanged PC --preferably when they’re in a form that can’t cast spells-- that they can’t shapechange into any other form with a low Con score or they’ll die from loss of HP)....(snip)

I agree with the tactics described above by sanishiver. The other thing to look at doing is to attempt to dispel the Shapechange spell once he has 90 HP's or less. (Not an easy task in either respect) This would then most likely kill him as his natural sorcerer form does not have as many HP's as the Pit Fiend due to a lower CON.

This may sound like some to be a dirty trick but I think that it is well within the realms of fair play for a DM. At this level the party can get him back in the fray very quickly via a number of spells and it may make him think about some of the drawbacks of this seemingly invincible spell.

Olaf the Stout

 

[ForceUser]

Wormwood House Rule #8:
Add the following text to Polymorph and Shapechange: "The assumed form cannot have a Challenge Rating higher than your caster level."

That is a fantastic suggestion. Yoink.

 

[hong]

Got a reference to back that up? The only one I can think of is in the paladin description, which says that it is not honorable (a paladin has to "act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth"), but not that it is evil.

He's probably thinking of the BoED. Me, I love the crunch in the BoED, but I skipped over all the waffle about Good and Evil at the start. In any case, all you have to do is call them "ravages" instead of "poisons" and behold! Good again!