DM panic button!! (gate and solars)

[Plane Sailing]

Don't forget the potential for divinations to warn the bad guys that something really big is coming down the pike at them. If they are facing enemies of that calibre, then you can expect the bad guys to be gating in friends of their own - and the bad guys are more likely to be selling their soul for bigger favours - e.g. very advanced pit fiends with wishes and such... allow the two summoned ultra-nasties to square off against one another and let the lesser mortals handle their own problems between them. (hint: take a look at the finale of (contacts) Temple of Elemental Evil storyhour for an excellent way in which this happens).

Another good option is that as soon as the Solar appears, all the evil guys bail out instantly. Solar looks around with nothing to do. Bad guys reform and come back later. Solar will eventually get angry if he is continually summoned away from his work and to this world.

Even better, make the summoning have consequences... What if that Solar was "holding the gate" for an entire plane against forces of evil at the point when he was summoned away! Maybe that plane falls to fiendish forces! Continual summoning of a Solar might have grave effects on battles out amongst the outer planes!

Also, as a DM the way that I would RP a Solar would be good in a terrifying intensity. I would have any cleric who summoned a Solar in this way completely terrified. The Solar wouldn't be a namby-pamby who fought the enemy with ultra-buff weapons and then gave them a lecture... No, it would expect conversion to its cause, it would judge all those present for *any* acts of non-good-ness. It would be working to a higher agenda than these mortals understood...

 

[gfunk]

Some people have given very good reasons to why/how you can manage a player who gates in a Solar, so let me take a different angle:

1. Gate is a calling spell, not a summoning spell. That means that the creature is fully and truly on the Prime Material Plane. If it dies, then it is *dead,* unlike Summon Monster spells where the the dead creature is banished for 24 hours.

2. Read up on the Solar flavor text in the MM. Solars are the "greatest of celestials" and "virtually unmatched in power." If you were a deity, how would you like if one of your cleric was constantly putting your right hand man's life in danger? And against his will to boot!

3. Personally, I think a Solar should follow the PCs instructions as per the description given in the Gate spell. But afterwards, have him Plane Shift/Teleport back to the summoner and threaten him never to summon him again, *unless* the encounter is of earth-shattering importance (e.g. destruction of an incredibly powerful fiend or dragon).

4. This is a great role-playing opportunity for PCs when using the "long-term" contract option of gate. Each Solar, it is written, may be responsible for upholding a particular virtue. Say, for instance, the one called in is responsible for bringing murderers to justice. The Solar could ask you, in return for extended service, to capture a powerful warlord/assassin/wizard who is infamous for his killing of innocents.

5. Regardless of what is Gated in, they will be extremely pissed that their lives were endangered for a mortal wizard. If they are as powerful, intelligent, and resourceful as a Solar they *will* return with their friends to seek retribution.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If the dieties just do not want people to be able to call a Solar, they would not allow the spell, or make it "malfunction".

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm not sure what is being asked here. Are we looking for ways to curb the act of calling a solar using the Gate spell, or simply ways to combat a solar once it's been called to the field?

Myself, I've taken the flavor text of the solar (greatest of celestials, right-hand to gods, etc.) to mean that all solars are unique beings. (Like the seraphim, which, while all "angels," have names and duties unique to them.) As such, they cannot be forced to serve lesser beings through the use of mortal magics. The Gate spell can request one, but as per the spell description, the solar chooses whether or not to come. Suffice it to say, the default answer to such a request is "no."

If you allow solars to be summoned normally, they you may consider the rammifications of this. Being just short of deity status, solars are not the gophers of mortal clerics, even 17th-level ones. A solar so degraded as to be forced into service may use its 1/day Wish spell to strip the cleric of powers for a week as punishment for having the audacity to demand a solar's services. Repeated offenses could garner stronger reprisals. As I see it, just because a solar is good doesn't mean that solar is going to drop everything it's doing to come fight something for the PCs. There is a war going on, after all.

If it comes down to fighting the solar, I can't help. I've never been in that unenviable position.

 

[drnuncheon]

Here's a couple things to consider:

First of all, if they're just saying 'a solar', they might get away with it a few times...but what happens when one comes through whose hit dice is more than twice the caster's level? Since Solars go up to 66 HD, that's not unthinkable. Something to think about if the party abuses this tactic.

Second, if the threat is enough for PCs to be gating in a solar...what is the threat? Don't they have 17th+ level spellcasters?
Can't they gate in a big nasty demon or devil as well?

Or, for that matter...another solar? If they're a cleric they may not be able to, but an evil arcane caster is not prohibited from casting Good spells...now *that* would be nasty.

If you want to be less nasty use a 'fallen celestial' template, like the one in Legions of Hell.

J

 

[melkoriii]

I'm not sure what is being asked here. Are we looking for ways to curb the act of calling a solar using the Gate spell, or simply ways to combat a solar once it's been called to the field?

Myself, I've taken the flavor text of the solar (greatest of celestials, right-hand to gods, etc.) to mean that all solars are unique beings. (Like the seraphim, which, while all "angels," have names and duties unique to them.) As such, they cannot be forced to serve lesser beings through the use of mortal magics. The Gate spell can request one, but as per the spell description, the solar chooses whether or not to come. Suffice it to say, the default answer to such a request is "no."

If you allow solars to be summoned normally, they you may consider the rammifications of this. Being just short of deity status, solars are not the gophers of mortal clerics, even 17th-level ones. A solar so degraded as to be forced into service may use its 1/day Wish spell to strip the cleric of powers for a week as punishment for having the audacity to demand a solar's services. Repeated offenses could garner stronger reprisals. As I see it, just because a solar is good doesn't mean that solar is going to drop everything it's doing to come fight something for the PCs. There is a war going on, after all.

If it comes down to fighting the solar, I can't help. I've never been in that unenviable position.

Lord Pendragon you have the right idea. The Solar is almost a demi-god in itself. As gate is a calling the Solar would know who is calling and probubly could tell for what reason. If the battle is not worthy of its presents then it will not show but as the Cleric is a high ranking CLeric and is calling for help the Solar would have no problem sending in a replacment. Say 3-4 Trumpet Archons or Astral Devas or some other Good allined monsters of a helpful sort. Make a list of things that it may send as help.

 

[Junkheap]

SOME SPOILERS

If the evil guys can do it, i can't see why the good guys can't. I find it very stupid and unfair that npc's you face off against have no problems with doing it(Since they are going to be killed by the pcs), but thier drawbacks of summoning the big baddie never has any consequences. In fact PC's will suffer more for it, so i don't see a problem here. He is summoning a SOLAR for god's sakes, so make him pay for it.

And i wouldnt see a problem with doing it in an adventure like Lord of the iron fortress, or bastion of souls(which are pretty epic in themselves). In fact, in the lord of the iron fortress, the good guys would be thanking you to tell them of what is happening or planning to happen, because as i see it so far, NO ONE KNOWS!

Like i said, if the evil guys can do it, so can the good. Its fair game.

PS. I also think if used to summon a solar, it should be a very very very important task at hand. Not like killing a cockroach because you can't.

 

[Jeremy]

Bah. D&D is about what you can do, not ways to minimize the abilities of your players or tell them flat out, nope you can't do that.

17th level games are hard to run, yes. Gate can be used to summon a solar (it's a 9th level spell), it can also be used to summon a celestial gold dragon or a fiendish red dragon for the bad guy.

Instead of saying no, don't let him do it, give him ways to deal with the situation.

How many 17th level casters you got running around your world? In mine these guys would be the high priests of the greatest church around if they weren't running around serving their gods. When they summon forth aid to thwart the evil schemes of demons and cultists, their calls are heard and through their magic the big boys are able to actually set foot upon the prime and show why good will always defeat evil. IMC the Solar is just itching to get in there and help out the guys that are saving the world, but for the same reason demons are prevented from accessing the mortal plane, so are they.

The best player on a team doesn't want to be on the field less, he wants it more. The solar should take the field of battle in blaze of glory and show not only what happens to people who endanger that particular gods followers (especially their favored, blessed followers) but also shows the truest virtues of good to assembled good guys. Virtue, Valor, Mercy, Sacrifice, Love, Righteous Extermination of Evil (TM).

Of course if they are challenging the bad guy in his lair he could very well use the evil altar of his dark god, the blood of innocents, an unholy relic of his dark god, and the prescense of demons in his casting of a Banishment spell to gain 4 to his caster level check to pierce SR, meaning 8 or better on a d20 if he's just a 20th level Evil Villain (TM) without spell power, any spell penetration items/feats, or a desecrated/unholy lair of some sort, and adding +8 to the will save to negate it givine a DC that can easily reach 40 for a well built bad guy.

If the big bad guy the solar gets summoned to defeat is by himself, then he will lose of course. One powerful villain is no match for 4-6 powerful heroes. Especially one so foolish as to let them gain access to him while he is by himself or so arrogant as to believe he can take them solo. And a team of high level characters can do anything. This goes for your PC's or the team of bad guys.

Your goal is not to defeat everything the PC's can do, it's to create a climactic battle of cinematic proportions that is challenging and fun. You are the DM you've got every tool in the book to make that happen. You can describe with power the Solar's celestial aura as he arrives and wrath he holds for the evil before him. You can describe the evil host arrayed to defeat the PC's and their new ally. You can have foes dropped left and right by the heroes and their ally, you can have foes that take hit after hit and remain standing, you can have foes who deal out foul magick after foul magick in a titanic spell war, you can have dark champions and advanced demons with class levels wreak havok among the heroes' ranks. And you can have a tremendous victory as the heroes use all their powers and win the day without pairing their powers down to the few 9th level spells that aren't too much more powerful than what the PC's were doing at 13th level.

Use your imagination, encourage theirs, and remember, it's not what you can't do, it's what you can!

 

[durath]

well said jeremy. All to often dm's deal with powerful PC's by stripping them of their powers rather than letting them use them in situations which actually warrant the use of near epic abilities.

I could keep talking but you have summed up everything quite well.

Dm's, read Jeremy's post and take it to heart.

 

[DM with a vengence]

Here the other thing. Gate actually summons the physical monster to your plane, while the various Summon Monster spells just send a sort of astral copy. This means that if a Summoned monster bites it, it suffers no lasting harm, but if that Solar you gated in gets unlucky, then one of the greatest forces for good in the Multiverse has just bit the big one. Permenantly.

Now do you want to gate in a Solar?