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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Clint_L" data-source="post: 8870599" data-attributes="member: 7035894">You can't actually disprove my personal experience.Expanding on that: I have never seen an instance of power gaming that wasn't also meta-gaming, which for me as antithetical to the kind of D&D that I personal enjoy. I am not judging others for what they enjoy; there is no right or wrong here. I am simply stating what my personal experience and taste is. Saying that "it has been disproven" is a non sequitur, since I did not state an absolute. In fact, I specifically pointed out that this was my experience and emphatically not an absolute.To put it in terms of logic, since you are citing a gaming version of a standard logical fallacy, you are applying an a priori test to my a posteriori claim. Which is, in fact, your logical fallacy, not mine.My point stands. And it is only true for me. I am not saying anything about what you should feel, or that you are wrong in feeling however you do about this issue.Edit: building on that, to put it in plain English: the issue is between two types of truth tests. A priori tests, also commonly called coherence truth tests, are claims based upon pure reason. In a nutshell, they are claims expressed so that if the premises are correct, then the conclusion must inevitably follow. Mathematics, for example. Had I committed the "Stormwind Fallacy," I would have written something to the effect of:Premise 1: Roleplaying and character optimization are mutually exclusive.Premise 2: Player X is optimizing.Conclusion: Player X is not roleplaying.The so-called "Stormwind Fallacy" has not actually been committed in this thread that I have seen, and I rather doubt that it has ever been committed by anyone, because I doubt anyone would claim that optimization and role-play are logically exclusive. So I think it is actually a classic strawman argument - a way to avoid debating the actual claim by twisting it.However, I did not make anything like such an extreme claim, so any charge of the "Stormwind Fallacy" is wrong and a straw man argument. I made a different kind of claim which relies not on coherence but on correspondence. This is an a posteriori claim, which is never absolute and is rooted in observations. In a nutshell, the claim is true insofar as it corresponds to evidence. The sciences rely on this sort of reasoning. The main difference is that the conclusion is never an absolute. Here is the actual argument that I made:Premise 1: I have observed that roleplaying and extreme optimization (also known as "power gaming) have been generally exclusive in my personal experience.Premise 2: I prefer an emphasis on roleplaying.Conclusion: I don't want power gaming in the games that I run.Note also that I was at some pains to point out that "optimization" and "power gaming" are very loosely defined terms, so probably no one in this discussion is actually debating the exact same point. I was also at some pains to point out that "YVMV," thus acknowledging that my personal experience is only that, and entirely subjective. And finally, I have consistently emphasized that there is no right or wrong here, just personal preferences.So having my nuanced argument and subjective, personal experience dismissed as the dreaded (and in logical terms farcical) "Stormwind Fallacy" is not a convincing response. However, responding to that charge has been kind of fun, and that's what these discussions are for, so cheers.TLDR: Stop citing the "Stormwind Fallacy." It's a logical fail and not a meaningful argument.Edit 2: I think you meant to write "...it's been proven again and again," not disproven, since I think you intended to affirm the so-called "Stormwind Fallacy," correct? Note that if it is, in fact, a logical truth it would only have to be proven once. Saying it has been proven "again and again" would be like asserting that 2+2=4 is more true because it has been proven again and again.</blockquote>

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