DM versus Players

[pawsplay]

Forked.

It wasnt fate that chose to use the monster or even the table with that random monster on it.... hiding behind dice doesnt work you are the DM and you just threw away the players time (at least by some perspective).

And sorry for diverging topic on this... further discussion ought to be forked.

Encourages DM versus Players mentality... You know the levels you just spent 20 hours game play getting for your character rip... they are gone because of a single die roll... sorry...

See, to me, this is Player versus Threat of Serious Death. Which is fun. There is no hiding involved; if you roll your dice in the open, you are brazen about your commitment to letting the PCs dig their own graves. Deadly and nasty NPC abilities are a part of game design, not a flaw that must be avoided in the name of Family Safe Fun.

 

[billd91]

See, to me, this is Player versus Threat of Serious Death. Which is fun. There is no hiding involved; if you roll your dice in the open, you are brazen about your commitment to letting the PCs dig their own graves. Deadly and nasty NPC abilities are a part of game design, not a flaw that must be avoided in the name of Family Safe Fun.

Yes, not DM vs Player mentality. Over-reaction to dangerous powers is more of a Player vs DM mentality (the order matters).

That said, I have nothing against what PF has been doing to the save or die and other strong powers as far as ameliorating them. I just don't see those kinds of powers as any indication of a DM working to thwart the players in an otherwise fairly run game.

 

[Garthanos]

Not death, its serious maiming which interestingly in real life is consdered nastier by many people... get the difference between cruel and unusual punishment versus execution?

Maiming is closer to identity loss... if your character dies they died being a hero - being themselves hopefully.

And this is the kicker many players see the advancement as a personal accomplishment... the magic user is a worst case scenario since he was so impoverished of wizardness when he started out... that being knocked back to low level is horrible. I take my level one wizard up to level 6 trust me back in the day (AD&D) this took a lot of gaming sessions (this seems to have gone down in recent versions). he gets hit by wights or whatever level draining monster and shunted to a level 1 or similar.

His identity has been stripped and for all intents and purposes... leaving a husk...

This mechanic feels chronically tied to player resentment which is core to the DM versus Players mentality.

The DM has tons of power... this feels like rape.

 

[Garthanos]

Player vs DM mentality (the order matters).

No it doesnt ... players seeing things as the DM out to get them is very grotesque and changing the name doesn't change it ... the question is whether certain mechanics tend to easily induce the resentment from reasonable people.

The mechanic in question isnt even save or die.. it was save or suck
(virtually forever).. level draining.

The mechanic also introduces disparaging levels between characters... so your character sucks in direct comparison to other players characters not just what you used to be.(which for some characters can be an incredible amount see the magic user mentioned above?)

 

[Cadfan]

1. I don't care about serious threats of character death, I care about serious challenges. There are many things which pose a serious threat of character death but which do not pose meaningful challenges, because to be a challenge my own choices have to be the primary determinant of success.

And that does NOT mean that somewhere along the chain of causation I (or my party, technically) made a decision that, but for that decision, my character would not have been killed. The cause has to be proximate.

Just getting off on the charge of tossing a dice and hoping that a high number comes up and you win is a gambler's thrill that I simply do not feel.

2. I'm really not a fan of DMs claiming that they have no responsibility for what goes on in their game if a dice was somehow involved. If you engineer a situation where a player has to roll a 12 to live, and the player rolls an 11, its cowardice to shrug that off as the dice falling where they may.

It may also be cowardice to throw things back on the players for not avoiding the situation, but that's harder to tell because the DM and the players are both responsible for those sorts of things. It might be cowardice or it might be completely correct.

 

[Nightson]

Consequences for players need to flow from player actions. If you roll on a random encounter table and get six needlefang drake swarms versus a level one party, then it's time to rework your random encounter table, not time to kill all the PCs for no reason.

But say that the PCs see several needlefang drake swarms from up in a tree and they decide to go fight them. Well then it's okay to kill them. You certainly don't have to kill them, but it's okay to kill them.

 

[Markn]

No it doesnt ... players seeing things as the DM out to get them is very grotesque and changing the name doesn't change it ... the question is whether certain mechanics tend to easily induce the resentment from reasonable people.

The mechanic in question isnt even save or die.. it was save or suck
(virtually forever).. level draining.

The mechanic also introduces disparaging levels between characters... so your character sucks in direct comparison to other players characters not just what you used to be.(which for some characters can be an incredible amount see the magic user mentioned above?)

I didn't follow the other thread, and people seem to be chiming in on this thread from different angles/agendas. Apologies if I missed something relevant to the discussion before this, but here is my 2cp.

First, I am entirely on board with the order (DM vs Player) making a difference. I definately feel its Player vs DM and not DM vs player. I havd a good group of guys, very mixed in personalities, some are heavy roleplayers, some powergames, some min-maxers. For the most part, the mood is neutral and everyone is there for a good time and that is acheived. Once in a while, when the tension is ratcheted up, as DM I hear comments like like "Take that, <insert expletive>, or "This fights got a TPK written all over it" and the mood changes to player vs dm. In my own experience, it seems to be when certain abilities show up in the game (and I play a 4e game BTW) that seem to invoke this response. The funny thing is, in 4e, we have had only 2 deaths since it came out and people rarely drop. In the end the players overcome the challenge and there are high 5's and cheering when they pull out a tough victory. The reality is I haven't TPK'd in years, nor do I take the "take that" comment personally but it is an indication of the player vs dm mentality that creeps in from time to time. It is obvious that it happens. Maybe its because there are 6 players with the same goal (defeating the bad guys) and I'm the only one who APPEARS to have a different goal but in reality I want the players to win with the added caveat of making the encounter interesting.


Garthanos, you seem to be specifically discussing mechanics like level drain from previous editions. On this point, I wholeheartedly agree with you. It plain sucks. I know I'd rather die back then than lose 4 levels that will take a year to get back. I'm not sure that is relevant to DM vs Player (or the reverse as I see it). More rather, its a bad mechanic, which thankfully has been removed from the game. If people continue playing those old editions, that is one facet of the game that the DM/players shoud talk about before starting. There have been great improvements to the game and they can esaily be tailored to earlier editions to provide better (fun) experience. I just don't think it has any bearing on a DM vs Player discussion.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Players need to trust their DM´s that he doesn´t plan to kill his players.

The DM´s job is challenging their players and threatening with death or bad things. But the plyers must have a fair chance.

Players should not be punished for bad rolls. They should be punished by bad decisions. If both come together, a pc can die. Otherwise not.

Level drain was bad in ADnD because you could end at lower level than if you had died. Lets be honest, who had players start from level 1 when they died?

 

[Garthanos]

Garthanos, you seem to be specifically discussing mechanics like level drain from previous editions. On this point, I wholeheartedly agree with you. It plain sucks. I know I'd rather die back then than lose 4 levels that will take a year to get back. I'm not sure that is relevant to DM vs Player (or the reverse as I see it). More rather, its a bad mechanic, which thankfully has been removed from the game. If people continue playing those old editions, that is one facet of the game that the DM/players shoud talk about before starting. There have been great improvements to the game and they can esaily be tailored to earlier editions to provide better (fun) experience. I just don't think it has any bearing on a DM vs Player discussion.

It was what I was responding to... and the relevance was that this mechanic and liking it from a dms perspective specifically set you up as a DM antagonistic to the players.

 

[malkav666]

The player vs DM does not really make sense to me. I use random encounters when my characters are traveling often. Rolling up a hard encounter does not mean you have to KILL your party with it. If the players are playing intelligently give them a chance to avoid the encounter with clever play or creativity, or dust off those DM braincells and present the encounter in such a fashion that is it feasible for the party to possibly win, or if none of those work for you, at least present the encounter in such a fashion where the PCs can run like hell if need be.

Now as far as planned encounters, I make hard encounters every so often. I tend to put a good deal of the encounters at right about my parties level, but I do jack some of them up and make them hard. With out the threat of losing sometimes, then winning realy just does not mean as much. Now if I know I am gonna make a hard encounter I tend to lean those towards BBEG fights or otherwise intregal or epic fights to the story. I dont just wipe them out ion randiom orcs, If I know folsk have a chance of dying, I at least want them to die to something scary, not scum.

love,

malkav