Level drain mechanic is no different than the mechanics for wizard spells. One mechanic is more "unfun" than the other, sure, but thats it. One mechanic DOES inspire negative feelings and I suspect that is one of the main reasons it doesn't exist any more. I fail to see the connection between the mechanic and antagonistic DM vs Players though.
DM versus Players
- Thread starter pawsplay
- Start date
Level drain mechanic is no different than the mechanics for wizard spells. One mechanic is more "unfun" than the other, sure, but thats it. One mechanic DOES inspire negative feelings and I suspect that is one of the main reasons it doesn't exist any more. I fail to see the connection between the mechanic and antagonistic DM vs Players though.
BTW, one other comment I will make, is that I think it is human nature to seek support and gain confidence when others are behind you. Thus, when the players are a group, they feed off one anothers vibes and this also attibutes to players vs DM.
I'm not always saying it is always prevalent but it does exist.
I'm not always saying it is always prevalent but it does exist.
thecasualoblivion
First Post
A lot of early D&D/AD&D stuff smacked of Nintendo Hard and False Difficulty.
I don't mind danger, but Nintendo Hard/False Difficulty is a lame excuse for real danger and suspense.
I don't mind danger, but Nintendo Hard/False Difficulty is a lame excuse for real danger and suspense.
pawsplay
Hero
Some of the above posts seem to equate nasty consequences with arbitrariness. However, I would never trap the PCs in a box with a level draining monster or something that deals instant death. It is interesting when the natural consequences of the players' decisions lead the PCs into high stakes situations. In a well run game, ideally, I think poor choices or really bad luck are the only reasons you should get a TPK, although accidents do happen. But I am fine with long odds resulting in absurd and sudden death, because my players know I don't roll the dice unless I mean it. As a player, it is very, very disappointing for me to find out the DM has been "playing nice." RPGs by their nature lend themselves to experiences that cannot be had in the real world: an imaginary environment in which any consequence can fall onto my PC without injury to me. Death, humiliation, moral oblivion... all are potentially fitting retirements for a PC, just as much as glory, admiration, and integrity.
thecasualoblivion
First Post
That's a good word pawsplay, arbitrary. My beef with some of the discussed aspects of older editions of the game isn't being killed or maimed, but the arbitrariness of the mechanics themselves.
I don't have a problem with danger. I have a problem with arbitrary. Like I said, Nintendo Hard/False Difficulty.
I don't have a problem with danger. I have a problem with arbitrary. Like I said, Nintendo Hard/False Difficulty.
BryonD
Hero
I am 100% in the camp that putting real and scary threats in front of the party is the only way to let the party honestly enjoy overcoming them.
I'm also of the opinion that defeat at the hands of a serious challenge is far more fun than victory given away cheaply.
I'm also of the opinion that the value of leveling a character to 12 is the great experience of that process, not the possession of a L12 character. Thus, if that L12 character is destroyed or disabled in any way, nothing whatsoever is lost.
I'm also of the opinion that defeat at the hands of a serious challenge is far more fun than victory given away cheaply.
I'm also of the opinion that the value of leveling a character to 12 is the great experience of that process, not the possession of a L12 character. Thus, if that L12 character is destroyed or disabled in any way, nothing whatsoever is lost.
Ladies and gents,
Please put a damper on the hyperbole. There are folks here who have experienced real-life sexual assault themselves, or have a family member or loved one who has been a victim.
thecasualoblivion
First Post
That's all well and good, but I'd rather have the danger be real, and the challenge be real, as opposed to a lame coin flip that can't be avoided.
BryonD
Hero
Certainly any DM can kill any PC at any time. And if it plays out that way, then you have a bad DM.
There must always be a means for the player to weigh and control the risks that they put their character into. That doesn't mean they always are promised that they weighing will be accurate. And choices made in the past may certainly influence the level of control left in choices in the present.
A PC railroaded into a 50/50 shot is lame.
A PC choosing to take a 50/50 shot at saving the day or being annihilated can be way cool, either way it goes. And a PC choosing NOT to take that 50/50 shot and going on to try to overcome the challenge in some other manner can be way cool, whether the PC ultimately becomes the hero or a dragon snack.
Arbitrary itself is bad. I agree. But going all in before the flop is not arbitrary. The result following that commitment ARE arbitrary and pure fate. But that is not arbitrary itself, it is part of heroic adventure.
BryonD
Hero
I think my simultaneous reply is consistent with what you are saying here.
