DMG II -- In my hands . . .

[Henry]

Y'know, here's an interesting question: How does a creature with damage resistance react to a swarm? Should a swarm of biting, stinging insects harm a Pit Fiend? If so, why?

 

[Psion]

Y'know, here's an interesting question: How does a creature with damage resistance react to a swarm? Should a swarm of biting, stinging insects harm a Pit Fiend? If so, why?

That's a good question. Why can a pit fined's flash turn away steel, but not an ant bite?

Y'know, HERO system really didn't have a mechanic for multiple attacks without increasing your speed, so they modeled multiple attacks as a single attack with reduced penetration.

Perhaps a suitable house rule for swarms and mobs would be to treat each dice of damage individually for the purposes of DR. Or something similar.

 

[WizarDru]

Unless it's something like a hellwasp swarm, I'd say that it shouldn't bother them in the slightest. A General of Hell lives amongst some of the most inhospitable living condition found in the D&D's 'Great Wheel' cosmology. I find it hard to believe that someone who may have hung from iron hooks on chains for 5000 years before being allowed to have his skin flayed daily while half submerged in lava in the service of a demon prince or archduke would find the attacks of mundane insects or vermin to be terribly troubling.

Now, if that was a celestial swarm...well.....

 

[Garnfellow]

Y'know, here's an interesting question: How does a creature with damage resistance react to a swarm? Should a swarm of biting, stinging insects harm a Pit Fiend? If so, why?

From the SRD:

A swarm’s attacks are nonmagical, unless the swarm’s description states otherwise. Damage reduction sufficient to reduce a swarm attack’s damage to 0, being incorporeal, and other special abilities usually give a creature immunity (or at least resistance) to damage from a swarm.

A swarm of largest size (21+ HD) does 5d6 damage, average 17.5. A pit fiend has DR 15/good and silver. The swarm would do an average of 2.5 points of damage a round, which would be contantly healed by its regeneration 5 ability.

 

[Psion]

Garnfellow, I suspect Herny understood the RAW, just didn't understand WHY it should be that way.

 

[MerricB]

Note about Whirlwind Attack/Great Cleave:

If a mob were treated as many single creatures, then you'd lose many points of damage from "overkill". If I hit a commoner (4hp) for 14 damage, that's 10 damage that shouldn't be counted.

At some point, you just have to say, "enough" and just go for simple (playable) rules.

What you lose from Whirlwind/Great Cleave, you make up for in just pure damage.

Cheers!

 

[Henry]

Garnfellow, I suspect Herny understood the RAW, just didn't understand WHY it should be that way.

Exactly; the question was in part rhetorical. If a swarm's damage is reduced in the normal fashion, then why a lot of fuss over the 5d6 damage from a lotta peasant fists?

In other words, the house rule Psion suggests would be a neat take on it; anything with DR 5 or greater can tell a mob to kiss off.

Lesson? Equip your mob before inciting them.

EDIT: All of a sudden, the comical image of a pit fiend stampeded by horses comes to mind...

"What the?!?!..."

 

[Felon]

Really? 'Cuz I saw this happen to a demon the other day, and he didn't come out of it well. If we're not talking about reality, but rather about how the RULES should be, then I'm afraid that the DMG2 and WotC say that *I* am the one in the "right" mindset, not you.

Just to clarify the obvious, the question at hand isn't whether or not the mob rules are being quoted correctly, but rather whether or not the mob rules are well-designed and work with the rest of the system, not against it.

Clearly, if dragons and arch-demons and adamantine golems can be slapped around by peasants, there's something not quite right with those rules. By design, 3.5e monsters aren't allowed to have more than 15 points of DR (except perhaps in some very rare and extreme cases), so mobs can consistently hurt monsters to a degree many a hero can't. You don't need heroes to go on quests, you just need a bunch of pissed-off peasants.

Unless it's something like a hellwasp swarm, I'd say that it shouldn't bother them in the slightest. A General of Hell lives amongst some of the most inhospitable living condition found in the D&D's 'Great Wheel' cosmology. I find it hard to believe that someone who may have hung from iron hooks on chains for 5000 years before being allowed to have his skin flayed daily while half submerged in lava in the service of a demon prince or archduke would find the attacks of mundane insects or vermin to be terribly troubling.

And don't forget a smack upside the head from Old Maggie the washer-woman, and a rolling pin to the kneecap from Blueberry Joe the pieman, and a vicious kick in the shin from Li'l Ernie the street urchin...this stuff adds up y'know. Duke of hell indeed! Viva la proletariat!

 

[WizarDru]

And don't forget a smack upside the head from Old Maggie the washer-woman, and a rolling pin to the kneecap from Blueberry Joe the pieman, and a vicious kick in the shin from Li'l Ernie the street urchin...this stuff adds up y'know. Duke of hell indeed! Viva la proletariat!

NOT THE FACE!!!

 

[gizmo33]

Just to clarify the obvious, the question at hand isn't whether or not the mob rules are being quoted correctly, but rather whether or not the mob rules are well-designed and work with the rest of the system, not against it.

I think that's overstating it. I don't think anyone on any side of the issue has shown that the mob rules don't work or aren't well designed. The key point here is that the mob IS NOT a simulation of running 48 creatures in normal combat - so it's not "working against the system" or breaking any rules because it is it's own set of rules.

The issue for me is whether the mob is suitable for my campaign. I don't like the premise of unreasoning creatures being significantly more powerful than reasoning, trained, and armored creatures. I should have known that the term "mob" would not apply to a phalanx but I was hoping that it could.

My wish list would be to design a "troop" template (first order of business - better name?) that represents a certain number of creatures that constitutes a unit with better fighting capability than the individuals. I guess a new thread is in order.