DMG II -- In my hands . . .

[gizmo33]

But 48 commoners transform into a 30 HD creature with hp equal to all the creatures combined? That strikes me as a little ridiculous.

That was my first impression, too.

However, some of the powers of a barbarian who has fought alot of battles are pretty ridiculous also. Experience in battle appears to translate into an ability to resist charm spells, fall off of cliffs, and a whole bunch of other things. If you can accept the game logic that says that experience translates into all of these heroic things, then why not accept that a large group of persons with determination can achieve great things collectively?

A decent fighter would theoretically take off 2% of the group's total combat effectiveness per hit, or 10% in a full attack.

According to what theory though? According to DnD without mobs. Mobs certainly don't make sense as simply a "record-keeping" technique for lots of characters - I would see them as an entirely new thing - an advantage to large groups of creatures banding together where, due to morale or whatever, the group of creatures becomes greater than the sum of it's parts.

I mean, the only real value of Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, and evocation magic at this point is takign out mooks, and this would completely nerf all of them.

Can you attack individuals within a mob? In this post some mention was made of killing individuals being equivalent to negative energy levels. And also double damage from area spells?

Oh, Lonny, I just realized the chaos this could cause if the PCs try to turn it about. Finally a really effective combat use for those hundreds of 1st and 2nd level followers you get from Leadership! Or they could just gather a few dozen beggars and use Diplomacy to incite them. I'm sure somebody here remembers the infamous "beggar mob" stories from Knights of the Dinner Table.

Taking a look at the "mass combat" thread on this board, there's some reasonable arguments that low-level mooks are such a joke that they wouldn't even factor into wars in DnD. Calling it "chaos" might be overstating it somewhat - in fact, your post sounds strangely reasonable to me that there would be an effective use for followers. Keep in mind that normal supply and deployment logic would have to be considered before you marched 500 followers into a dungeon. And IMO there were plenty of reasons to want 500 people in the front rank to set off traps - before there was Mob template If you didn't have to deal with this issue before as a DM, I'm not sure why anything would change now.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

Can somebody offer more insight into the teamwork rules?

 

[The_Fan]

When a mob mentality takes over, people DO become a lot more dangerous than they should logically be. Once the mob starts to form, people stop acting as individuals, surrendering their concious thought to a collective rage. People will do things they wouldn't normally do once caught up in the moment. The sheer press of bodies can overrun any attempt at defense. The collective morale makes it much harder to scare away a mob than it would be to cow anyone involved. Even with a complete lack of organized leadership, mobs will act in eerie concert, everyone involved working together to batter down walls, flip vehicles, etc.

I don't think that Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, etc. really need special provisions in this case either. Just mentally change the text that says "individually targeted spells" to "individually targetted attacks" and your feats suddenly become a lot more useful. Theoretically a fighter with Whirlwind and a spiked chain standing right on the outskirts of the mob could take out half of them in one attack. Better hope it works, or then they'll swarm over him and kick him to death.

 

[Henry]

The_Fan makes good points; I'd also like to point out that d20 combat being abstract by nature, that the rules do not well simulate the effectiveness of large groups of opposing individuals well; I don't find it plausible that one man, no matter how skilled, can take on 700 individuals and win with only a few scratches. A group of Ten or twenty attackers acting alone? Very heroic, and I can see it. (Jose Ferrer's Cyrano comes to mind.) A group of forty or fifty, working together? Uh-uh. It stretches my bounds of believability too much. In the rules right now, a phalanx of Pikemen would get massacred by a level 15 fighter.

 

[Simplicity]

Can somebody offer more insight into the teamwork rules?

Sure. By training for 2 weeks, a team can learn to coordinate their efforts more effectively. You can get one teamwork benefit for every 4HD of the minimum HD person on the team. The team leader needs to meet certain prereqs, and everyone must meet other prereqs.

The benefits range from:
Having a routine for inspecting doors for traps
Sneaking as a group (sneak at normal speed without penalty)
Spell barrages (penalties against victims of multiple Reflex save spells on the same round)
Combat Medicine(?) (If two people try to perform a Heal check on a person in the same round, the second automatically succeeds.)
Superior Flanking (if two party members flank an enemy, then everyone is considered flanking)
And many more...

Kind of cool, and gives a purpose to training other than just leveling up. Though some I think are probably too powerful (e.g. give party members Evasion versus friendly AoE spells).

 

[Simplicity]

But 48 commoners transform into a 30 HD creature with hp equal to all the creatures combined? That strikes me as a little ridiculous.

Reductio ad absurdum.

The RULES are a ridiculous representation of reality in the first place. There's nothing ridiculous about the idea of a 30 person mob being an imposing force, especially against a single fighter. They only begin to seem odd when they start to fall outside what you previously believed was the normal rule structure.

With the mob template, the rules are adjusted to reflect reality a little better. Good.

 

[The_Gneech]

In the rules right now, a phalanx of Pikemen would get massacred by a level 15 fighter.

Why do I keep thinking of Sanjuro here?

MOOK: What are you doing?
TOSHIRO MIFUNE: I'm going to release the prisoners.
30 MOOKS: What! Die! *attack*
TOSHIRO MIFUNE: *kills 20 mooks in 30 seconds*
10 REMAINING MOOKS: Mommy! *attempt to flee*
TOSHIRO MIFUNE: *kills 10 remaining mooks in 5 seconds*
RELEASED SAMURAI: You were great!
TOSHIRO MIFUNE: *slaps Released Samurai stupid* You idiot! You forced me to KILL all those guys just to rescue your sorry butt!

Great flick.

-The Gneech

 

[LordVyreth]

Reductio ad absurdum.

The RULES are a ridiculous representation of reality in the first place. There's nothing ridiculous about the idea of a 30 person mob being an imposing force, especially against a single fighter. They only begin to seem odd when they start to fall outside what you previously believed was the normal rule structure.

With the mob template, the rules are adjusted to reflect reality a little better. Good.

Potentially, when within the context of a mob versus one high-level fighter. When magic and monsters are factored in, it remains just as absurd. With these rules, fifty-some commoners with no training, weaponry, or exceptional traits could defeat gigantic monsters and even landed dragons without taking a single casualty. They can even do damage to monsters with DR despite not having a single weapon capable of penetrating it. And by mob logic, the best way to survive a fireball without anybody dying is by squeezing as close together as possible in a tight formation.

Besides, it makes to sense to create a system that better reflects reality in the middle of a game involving heroic characters. The rules are designed for people who want to play Aragorn, Lancelot, or even real individuals like Blackbeard. Tossing a single theoretical bone to realism like this is like including a core rule in the DMG2 that inflicts a permanent debilitating injury on characters every time they take critical hits.

 

[Palaner]

Does anyone else feel that this book doesn't really help with preparation other than more building blocks? It seems that all they recommend is to "buy more adventures."

 

[Simplicity]

Potentially, when within the context of a mob versus one high-level fighter. When magic and monsters are factored in, it remains just as absurd. With these rules, fifty-some commoners with no training, weaponry, or exceptional traits could defeat gigantic monsters and even landed dragons without taking a single casualty. They can even do damage to monsters with DR despite not having a single weapon capable of penetrating it. And by mob logic, the best way to survive a fireball without anybody dying is by squeezing as close together as possible in a tight formation.

Again, it sounds like you're stuck in Rulesland. No rule is patently absurd simply because it violates other rules. You could argue that it is a poor representation of REALITY, but that's not what you're doing.

It's unlikely that a mob of 30 peasants would be able to take on a dragon with very much success (unless that dragon was REALLY weak). They certainly wouldn't be able to do it without getting casualties. A breath weapon is going to beat the crap out of them.
(But yes, less so than 30 peasants milling around stupidly in front of a dragon).

Bunching together doesn't sound like a horrible way to protect yourself from an explosion (or a breath weapon)... It's a heck of a lot better than standing out by yourself in the middle of an explosion.

And how exactly are the fists and feet of 30 peasants kicking a demon from all around going to do less damage than a single longsword? The demon SHOULD be taking damage unless you're stuck in a mindset of "each of those punches are a single attack!"