DMG & MIC Random Treasure Tables Question

[Oryan77]

I'm trying to use the Random Treasure Tables from the MIC to generate a CR 7 treasure. Out of curiosity, I compared the MIC treasure to what I would have rolled if using the DMG treasure tables. The results keep ending up with the MIC treasure being almost always twice as valuable as the DMG treasure and on occasion, the MIC treasure is close to 3 times as much as the DMG. I can never seem to get the DMG treasure to be twice as better even when I get lucky rolls.

Here is the breakdown of 1 set of random rolls.

DMG CR 7 rolls:
Rolled 18
1d10x10,000cp = 1000gp
Rolled 79
1d4 gems (rolled 3) = 120gp + 30gp + 60gp = 210gp
Rolled 32
Zilch magic items
Total value = 1210gp


MIC CR 7 rolls:
Rolled 26
2d8 x100gp = 300gp
2d4 x 100gp E goods = 600gp
Level 4 item (rolled 73) = Chain Shirt +1 = 1100gp
Total value = 2000gp


Has anyone experienced their party having much better treasure when using the random tables from the MIC? I guess it wouldn't matter if at the end of the day, I keep up with each PCs wealth and make sure they don't go over the average wealth per level. But it seems like using the MIC random charts means the group should have more encounters that don't give out treasure if the encounters that do include treasure are going to be so valuable.

 

[Jacob Marley]

The DMG tables have a high degree of variance. A CR 1 treasure can range from zero coins, zero goods, zero items to 40pp, 12,000gp in art, and a ring of Water Walking (15,000gp). The tables in the MIC are much more stable. In theory, the tables in the DMG and MIC should both average out to be ~300gp per CR 1 treasure. In practice, because of that high degree of variance, the DMG tables will often under-produce compared to the MIC tables. It simply takes too many dice rolls to bring about the average with the DMG tables; more than a typical campaign will require.

Personally, I utilize both tables depending on campaign and circumstances. The DMG tables are great when seeding a sandbox; I can build rumors around monsters known to have those huge treasures; whereas if I need a quick treasure for a typical merchant or noble, then the MIC works great. I like that the DMG tables can produce an orc with a ring of Water Walking, but appreciate the stability of the MIC tables.

 

[delericho]

I guess it wouldn't matter if at the end of the day, I keep up with each PCs wealth and make sure they don't go over the average wealth per level.

It's perhaps worth noting that the "Wealth by Level" table isn't actually a balancing mechanism. Instead, it's built from the treasure tables - those tables are aggregated to give the "average treasure per encounter" table, and WbL is then calculated at each level by adding 14ish times the ATpE value to the WbL for the previous level.

(That is, to get WbL for level 3, start with WbL for level 2, and add 14ish x the EL2 treasure amount.)

So, it's not really a measure of how much stuff a PC should have, it's a measure of how much stuff a PC is likely to have found if you use the treasure tables.

(And, incidentally, that's why you can get problems if you add a new PC to a group that has been using the tables - because the new guy gets to buy his gear using WbL, he gets to optimise the costs perfectly, where the other guys do not.)

It's also worth noting that the DMG tables are absolutely no respecters of the "big six" - there's little or no guarantee that a sword +N, the belt of giant's strength, or whatever, will come up. And that's another bit of the 3e balancing puzzle - all the (Monster Manual 1) monsters are 'balanced' assuming PCs won't have these things. (Of course, in actual play they do, and so balance goes even more haywire than expected!)

The net effect of all that is that you probably don't need to worry about giving out "too much" or "too little" treasure - the thing to watch out for (mostly) is that you don't give out any single item that is over-powered. Which either the MIC or DMG tables more or less handles.

--

These days, I tend to give out significantly more treasure than the tables indicate, but with two caveats:

- 'Found' items are resold at 20% of the base price, rather than 50%.

- When assigning items, I deliberately stay away from giving the exact item a PC would want. Instead, I'll give something useful but not quite optimised - so maybe a keen longsword +1, but not just a plain longsword +1.

(Also, when giving items I tend to go for a one-third/two-thirds split - one third will be gold, gems, and other 'treasure' that can be easily turned into gp; two thirds are magic and masterwork items.)

This then gives the players a choice: do they sell the items and replace them with the Big Six, and so end up at WbL levels but with optimised items, or do they stick with what they found and so end up with nominally more, but optimised, stuff?