DMs, CRs, and "Moral Conscience"

[Mark]

It's come to my mind that CRs, while they may (or may not quite) fairly reflect the mechanical base line of a creature, don't reflect the moral nature and therefore aren't completely indicative of actual power.

The moral conscience of a creature (which may vary somewhat based on how a particular DM views and institutes alignments) can often restrict the actions of good-aligned creatures in such a way as to effectively lower their CR in many circumstances.

Situations that could involve a "first strike" or "acting without regard to consequences" are areas where a creature of good alignment is at a distinct disadvantage when stacked up directly against a similarly powered (CR'd) creatured of an evil alignment.

This becomes even more difficult to adjudicate and prep where shades of neutrality are involved.

Since CR is primarily the factor called upon by DMs when devising scenarios for their game and trying to maintain encounter levels, is there an easy or effective way to factor in the moral conscience?

Let's try to steer away from "House Rule" solutions and keep this discussion geared toward playing within the rules as they exist through roleplaying solutions or new mechanics, please. When I say "House Rules" I am referring to changing an existing rules, not devising a new guideline to cover an area not already covered by existing rules.

Thoughts? Input? Solutions?

Thanks!

 

[clark411]

I might look to the EL adjustment tables if alignment makes the encounter easier, the same as if the party owning the higher ground at the onset of a ranged fight made it easier.

In regards to it applying to Good creatures only, personally I've seen so many paladins and good characters start just and true duels with the business end of their sword (rather than say, a glove of holding filled with oil and an everlighting match hidden under the tongue) that I wouldn't say a Solar or something similarly "sensitive" to bad deeds or auras would always get a EL or CR hit.

 

[Flyspeck23]

Although you're right, I wouldn't worry too much about it. CR is an awkward thingy (think of undead creatures - now think of a party with a cleric... do the CRs still hold up?).

Circumstances always matter. In the very specific case where the alignment of the creature is a distinctive disadvantage, just change the XP award (as far as I remember, there's even a rule (make that "advice") for this in the DMG).

 

[Berandor]

I wouldn't worry that much, either. Even good creatures can be effective combatants, when they know that defeat would mean their probably death.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I don't know many angels who wouldn't bash a demon's face in with every available chair in the room the moment they saw one....

I don't know many adventurers who wouldn't do the same....

So Good alignment is only a restriction on power if they let it be. Good characters are just as capable of hasty, ill-thought out rage as the evil ones...they just make sure to direct it in the right way.

 

[Mark]

OK. Perhaps some are missing the point. Not a matter of worry, per se, just a bit of musing to work out a possible solution.

As mentioned, CR is an awkward mechanic ( thingy? ) that would benefit from some further guidelines (some do exist) and this is one area where it definitely has some room for improvement...if that is at all possible.

Circumstances do play a part in guidelines (I.E. party make up) but since that is not a variable in which we have control when forming guidelines (except perhaps in creating the guidelines so that affect is minimized) let's not focus too closely on how that plays a part.

And let's look at as as if we're discussing blind tests... I'm not talking about to equally CR'd but alignment-opposed creatures facing one another, but rather (let's just say) a neutral party of sufficient level and balanced mix coming up against one or the other. Is a good aligned NPC, for instance, at the same advantage as an evil aligned NPC if they are of the same CR (virtually the same in stats and equipment)? What, if any, adjustment should be made to EL to balance the two?

So, for the sake of discussion, any further thoughts?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think they are at the same advantage to overcome the other, and thus no EL adjustments are needed....

I'm not married to that opinion, though....I mean, I've proposed, but nothing's set in stone yet...I could let her go at any time....really....I mean, sure, I love her and all, but....look, man, I just want you to be my best man and...

Wait, what?

 

[the Jester]

I think the variability of the creature's moral compass (if you will) is at least as great as the variability between different parties. After all, two dms may run the same exact creature completely differently, and many neutral or good npcs won't have a way to know the align of the pcs when they first meet (and therefore will likely be wary until at least a tentative parlay is held).

In other words, I don't think it's possible to make an objective system that will work for everyone. It may be possible to factor it in for a given campaign's style on a case by case basis, but I'd say that adjusting ELs as you go is a better way to deal with this issue. I just think there are too many variables to effectively factor in.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

It's an interesting point. However, it doesn't restrict the creature's actions in all circumstances. The converse of this would be that evil creatures which don't strike first have a lower CR because they're not being evil enough. Were there some mechanical reduction in real power or ability, not potential power, I think I'd agree with the premise. That being said, if the creature does not act as effectively as it could, it's certainly a good idea to adjust the EL and the XP award as others already said. EL deals with circumstances better, I think.

 

[silentspace]

I don't think "First Strike" is so relevant. CRs don't assume that the PCs have a surprise round. And if both sides are aware of each other and combat is rolled, the PCs usually have an advantage (they are much tougher after all). And if the enemy is going to ambush the PCs, it doesn't really make a difference if the PCs are good or evil.