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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Crust" data-source="post: 2939675" data-attributes="member: 22330">Once my PCs hit the upper 20s, they had every right to believe they were tough.  They were.  However, I had a reoccuring villain who I never intended to have the PCs fight, but acted as that "ultimate foe" they could never hope to best: a 52 HD advanced colossal+ great wyrm red dragon; the seneschal of Tunarath and lord of Vlaakith's red dragons (and a consort of Ephelomon).I offset the red with an advanced great wyrm bronze... long story.  Their peak was when they were wheeling and dueling in the Astral skies above Tunarath while smaller reds and their riders battled metallics amidst elven wizards, githyanki warlocks, and Astral ships.  This while PCs assaulted the upper-most garrison on their way to Vlaakith's palace.Not to mention Realms personalities like Halaster, Larloch, The Simbul, the Zulkirs, the army of Cormyr, etc.  Not that I ever used many Realms personalities (I have used Elminster as an advisor and Dove as an NPC), but they still exist in the game.  Not that my group would ever get "out of line" in that regard.  The group knew, even in epic levels, that those two dragons surpassed them by a wide margin.  They also served as opposing (and extremely large) symbols of good and evil, which was nice.   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  To be honest, though, I haven't had to humble the guys in a good while.  They know what I expect as far as conduct and role-playing.  Sure, there's always something stronger.  How else are the PCs going to level???   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></blockquote>

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