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DM's, Do your PCs realize there are Bigger Fish?

questionmark

First Post
I am running a game with a new player, his old game had character histories like " Tregon was the greatest general of the most powerful Army in all of toril, but he got in to trouble "gladiator style" and is now a level one fighter. Basicly the characters start out as super tough characters with a ton of respect All this as a lvl one fighter. I see this as a problem personally because I think it sets the pc up for failer if there is eveer a powerful npc around. In the games I run, pcs have a feeling that they are above average for their class lvl compared to npc's of their same level but understand that mightier heroes and deadlier villians exist.
how oftten do you have you pcs encounter more powerful or vastly more powerful npcs.
what are your main reasons for introducing a mighty npc?
Do you keep your pc egos in Check?

Thanks
 
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Arkhandus

First Post
The players in my Rhunaria campaign know well enough that there are bigger fish. The first adventure took place in a city founded by an ex-adventurer, who had some impressive feats to his name, though nothing close to 'epic'-ness or whatnot.

Early in the second adventure, the PCs met another group of adventurers in the tavern, sitting around a map and discussing strategies for assaulting the trap-and-monster-laden castle appropriated by a crazy wizard some time ago, one they had tried to bust into before but failed. These adventurers had some expensive-looking gear and the warriors bore many scars, though the PCs couldn't tell just how powerful they were, they did SEEM like they must've been at least a few times more experienced as the PCs were as adventurers.

The party's seen a high priest destroy a minor evil artifact, and have met an old human wizard in a hobgoblin-founded city, who owned a modestly small tower (with a normal small house-like addition on the side) and was recommended by folks in town as magic items dealer and identifier, as well as an alchemist and magic item crafter, though he did only infrequent business as such. He seemed a little unhinged to the PCs, but he was nice enough. They did get a very ominous feeling from the tightly-sealed, be-sigiled, thick iron door to an iron-lined room in his basement though.... What made it obvious enough to the PCs though that he was fairly powerful was the tiny runes lining the inner edge of his doorway, and the incinerated corpse of a burglar lying at the threshold in the evening, when the PCs realized they had left the door open after following the wizard inside to talk business. Little more than ashes and shards of bone remained of the poor berk, making it obvious the wizard had a fairly strong magic trap or ward of some sort around his door. And to the PC mages, the wizard's study looked like it had some fairly powerful books. Plus the numerous powerful magic auras their Detect Magic cantrips revealed on most books and trinkets and relics on the study's shelves, while the wizard was fetching them some tea.

The PCs have fought a pair of mid-level kobold mages, each controlling a Bronze Serpent and hurling fireballs, ice storms, and lightning bolts..... The PCs have traveled briefly with a dwarven fighter overly obsessed with hygiene and appearance, him and his warpony decked out in rune-etched mithral armor and carrying an obviously-magical axe, hewing through the same kinds of foes that were giving the PCs a run for their money. The PCs took great delight in harassing that dwarf and pulling pranks on him......he was a jerk, he was.....though one PC bard pushed him too far with some thievery, at which point the dwarf beat him within an inch of his life with a few bare-knuckle punches, which made his point. The PCs did get to see him get battered around and challenged though, like against the Bronze Serpents. He never took the spotlight, but he did give them something to compete with, and a great NPC they loved to hate until he finally left the caravan, when it reached the destination.

They've traveled with a Rizan priest-diplomat who, even though having begun his priestly training as a monk, was a powerful enough cleric to invoke a few Flame Strikes in a single day, and call a Lesser Planar Ally at one point. They've met a few powerful dwarven mages from the Sterling Golemist Arcanaeum who helped them out briefly and sold them some magic items, including one who performed several Teleports in a row, effectively shuttling the large group of PCs a few at a time between the Arcanaeum's guildhall to the middle of a forest past at least one mountain range and at least one valley. The PCs have met with a great wyrm gold dragon who brought them to his lair for a chat, until he grew bored with them and their minor insults (some were rude, others just clueless, and the rest just tried to cover for their foolish comrades), sending them away. He had giants and golems for guards and servants, and an experienced-looking lizardman fighter decked out in rune-covered adamantine gear.

They've basically had enough run-ins and meetings of powerful individuals (compared to them anyway; most of the potent NPCs they encountered were in the low teens or slightly lower in level than that) to know that they aren't all that mighty and invincible, but at the same time, they've noticed their growth and know that they're much stronger than they once were, and may yet become as powerful or moreso than the people they've met along the way. None of the powerful NPCs took the spotlight, and there was never more than 1 or 2 around at a time (and plenty of times when there were none around); most of them the PCs just met with briefly in one or two sessions. But the players did have a good enough idea that they couldn't really just fly off the handle, while knowing that at least most of the powerful NPCs they encountered were pretty well each staying in one place and keeping busy with their own concerns, so the PCs were often the real people of action on the road and wherever they went.
 

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
The PCs in my game are 20th-23rd level, and they're still aware that there are bigger fish. Not many in their home world, mind you, and they know or have heard of most of their peers at this point -- but there are a lot of planars who the PCs consider to be better connected, more powerful or more important politically than they are.

If you have a player who wants to have a giant and powerful history as a 1st lvl PC, have them play an Elan from the XPH. Elans are people who have been "refashioned" somehow to gain immortality; in exchange, they lose all the power they used to have and start over at 1st lvl. It's a great excuse.

That is, until your former 16th lvl foes show up looking for you...
 


Shemeska

Adventurer
For PCs on the planes, there's always someone bigger out there, even if they don't have stats to actually quantify how much bigger they are.

But I prefer to use the following quotation, "I think that no matter how 'epic' level you are, Primus is going to use you as an abacus if you try to take him out."
 

Grymar

Explorer
I've actually worked a good bit in my Eberron game to make sure the PCs know that there aren't many bigger fish out there, at least friendly ones. There is no safety net, no group better equiped or flexible enough to do the jobs they do. If they fail at a job, then Elminster won't teleport in to save the day, nor will a God intervene. If they don't stop something from happening, then it will happen.

That doesn't mean they there aren't forces out there to challenge them, they just don't have much in the way of backup.
 

lukelightning

First Post
My players know that there are many more powerful people/things around, but one particular character thinks he's God's gift to just about everything (with the low Cha stat to match...he's just an arrogant blow-hard).
 

paradox42

First Post
The PCs in my games are always made aware that "bigger fish" exist. Even in my Epic game, where the PCs (a few levels ago) literally took on an army and won (without an army of their own, mind you), there are people and creatures they hear about that give them the willies to even think about challenging. Now, most of the creatures that are more powerful than they are are now off the Material Plane, and they know that, but they're aware the creatures and people exist- that's the important thing. It helps, I suppose, that the PCs have met several deities in person; the deities themselves are NPCs in that sense (and are clearly hundreds of times more powerful than the PCs are themselves).
 

questionmark said:
I am running a game with a new player, his old game had character histories like " Tregon was the greatest general of the most powerful Army in all of toril, but he got in to trouble "gladiator style" and is now a level one fighter. Basicly the characters start out as super tough characters with a ton of respect All this as a lvl one fighter.

That's a player problem, not a DMing problem. I suggest pointing out that his 16th-level enemies are still alive. Have him make several Will saves per day, and keep asking if his Int is at least 12...

Okay, seriously, just say no. It's your campaign too.

I see this as a problem personally because I think it sets the pc up for failer if there is eveer a powerful npc around. In the games I run, pcs have a feeling that they are above average for their class lvl compared to npc's of their same level but understand that mightier heroes and deadlier villians exist.
how oftten do you have you pcs encounter more powerful or vastly more powerful npcs.

Rarely. It's pretty difficult to design a mighty allied NPC without overshadowing the PCs. Ok, he's old and retired, but he's so powerful he could still do our job in his sleep. Why isn't this guy out saving the world, etc?

what are your main reasons for introducing a mighty npc?

Only as a villain, who for whatever reason cannot confront the PCs right now.

Do you keep your pc egos in Check?

Yes. They might rob a store easily - even a 20th-level shopkeeper can get knocked down by a trio of 13th-level heroes - but if they leave any evidence behind (eg a surviving shopkeeper), someone might get ambushed outside their house by an overwhelming and very mobile force of martial artists, get beaten senseless, then get tied to a telephone pole and have a "THIEF!" sign placed around their neck. Or, one that actually happened in my campaign, two PCs got taken out by a SWAT team, a deliberate "not balanced for EL" encounter.
 

Yup! IMC, current, previous, and future..whichever setting or system.. doesn't matter...

The bigger fish are Organizations. No PC, or group of PC's ever rival the breadth of power the major organizations weild.

Essentially, the higher the level the PC's get, the more useful they become to manipulating forces :)

A very few of my players have, somehow, remained ignorant of this aspect of my games...they were also the ones who routinely got their characters killed off in spectacular ways. :]
 

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