DM's, Do your PCs realize there are Bigger Fish?

[Dagger75]

Yes my players know they are'nt the biggest fish in the sea. They have been to sermon by 24th level cleric, talked to 24th level dwarven fighter and had a few drinks with him and now are doing the work for a 25th level Wizard. They don't trust him but they have been paid weel. They have even encountered higher level adventuring parties.

They know they aren't the biggest fish, but that only makes them want it more. They are thinking big. One has plans to carve a kingdom out of the land, and the other 2 members of the group are for it.

They aren't in this for the glory they are in it for power and wealth, they have said as much.

 

[Conaill]

Sure, but there's a great big gulf between "Bad DMs who never let their players feel heroic" and "player wants his 1st lvl fighter to currently be the greatest general in Toril." Especially when this is a consistent player trait.

Hmmm... although "powerful enemies tracking him down" makes a great plot hook!

Then again, a PC with a Napoleon complex can be lots of fun too!

 

[ruleslawyer]

To the OP:

It sounds like you have a disparity between flavor and mechanics there. Unless everyone else in the game world is a 1st-level NPC-classed individual, your friend's 1st-level fighter cannot be a "super-tough character." Now, one interesting idea might be to make him a former super-tough character. Perhaps he's an elan, or perhaps he fell afoul of a sinister foe, who instead of merely torturing and slaughtering his family, shut him into a cramped, unlit box with a trio of spectres who repeatedly drained his levels until he was reduced from his 16th-level self to a 1st-level fighter. It's an idea...

As to PCs being the biggest fish: I've actually always had the opposite problem, where players automatically assume that their PCs aren't the toughest people out there, and that if there's a REALLY big problem, there must be someone else with the power to handle it. I've sensed this a time or two in my current Iron Heroes campaign (which is set in Waterdeep); the PCs are currently 3rd level, and the players have been pretty scrupulous about taking captured foes or pieces of critical information to the Watch or the Lords (the shadowy rulers of the city). I'm perfectly happy with this conduct, but I do worry that it'll erode any sense that the PCs are the progatonists of the entire story. On some level, I don't worry; fantasy literature from Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser to the Lord of the Rings features side characters who are more powerful than the protagonists. The trick is to make the PCs more directly interested in what's going on than the powers-that-be.

 

[Crust]

Once my PCs hit the upper 20s, they had every right to believe they were tough. They were. However, I had a reoccuring villain who I never intended to have the PCs fight, but acted as that "ultimate foe" they could never hope to best: a 52 HD advanced colossal+ great wyrm red dragon; the seneschal of Tunarath and lord of Vlaakith's red dragons (and a consort of Ephelomon).

I offset the red with an advanced great wyrm bronze... long story. Their peak was when they were wheeling and dueling in the Astral skies above Tunarath while smaller reds and their riders battled metallics amidst elven wizards, githyanki warlocks, and Astral ships. This while PCs assaulted the upper-most garrison on their way to Vlaakith's palace.

Not to mention Realms personalities like Halaster, Larloch, The Simbul, the Zulkirs, the army of Cormyr, etc. Not that I ever used many Realms personalities (I have used Elminster as an advisor and Dove as an NPC), but they still exist in the game. Not that my group would ever get "out of line" in that regard.

The group knew, even in epic levels, that those two dragons surpassed them by a wide margin. They also served as opposing (and extremely large) symbols of good and evil, which was nice. To be honest, though, I haven't had to humble the guys in a good while. They know what I expect as far as conduct and role-playing. Sure, there's always something stronger. How else are the PCs going to level???

 

[kigmatzomat]

My game has recently reached 20th level. The party is aware that they can probably turn the tide of most battles but are ill-equipped to prevent a full-on war or even a well-constructed terrorism campaign carried out by 3rd level NPCs. There's just so much that 6 characters + 4 cohorts can do. The existence of Great Wyrms dragons (CRs in the mid20s using unmodified MM entries) on the sociopolitical playing field ensures awareness of Bigger Fish. And while the party might be able to defeat a single Great Wyrm, taking out their minions and loyal offspring (CR15-18 ea) at the same time is highly doubtful.


Thus, allies are the way to go. Figuring out how to defeat a foe and either intimidate them into subservience or impress them into swearing allegiance is an ever present goal. Plus, that means that some aspect of high-level games is ally-management. My DL game requires the players to balance the interests and goals of Lord Soth, renegade draconians, an exiled red dragon, a lich, a temporally displaced mage, the Irda, and the various nobles of Solamnia. The fact that many would probably have a cow if they found out the party was allied to one or more of the others adds a bit of tension.

I look forward to the "We called you here today...." speech with much anticipation. It should be horrifically entertaining. Of course, as the DM I'm going to have a schizophrenic breakdown afterwards from channeling so many diverse personas but it is sooooooo gonna be worth it.

 

[werk]

In my opinion, DM's who can't bring themselves to let PC's be big fish are a bigger problem.

In my experience, most DMs that allow their PCs to be epically big fish, like greatest general in Toril, don't run it appropriately or don't use all the tools available for opposition to the general...and if they do, planning takes over the campaign. That's fine if you want to suspend you disbelieve or sit around crunching numbers, but I find it is Not-So-Fun^TM.

IMC the players knew immediately that they were not the big fish. Once they were strong enough to protect themselves from the big fish, they realized there were bigger fish still. One of my players even stated that point out loud, when a mentor-type NPC began to explain the real power players. "Wow, so those guys are behind the secret organization that is backing the evil advisor that is subverting the ruler that appointed the captain of the guard that is causing the problems with the city watch turning people over to the thieves' guild?...it's like a big, evil beaurocracy!"

 

[reanjr]

I don't force the issue, but mostly my players don't come up with background that don't fit their level. On occasion, when a PC has some sort of background that indicates experience, I'll start that character a level higher than everyone else to reflect it.

Most people I know don't start campaigns at 1st level, so it's rarely an issue. Even a 5th level character can be considered an epic hero compared to the NPCs of the world.

 

[Crust]

Even epic PCs need to have a fear of death. However, I really enjoyed watching my gamers annihilate foes in such fantastic ways. It was like watching a Steven Seagal movie. You know, where he never gets touched, pummeling his opponents, whispering the coolest one-liners. We all earned some arse-kicking madness by that point. It's a rare and wonderful thing reaching epic levels after years.

My players knew they could die, but the cleric could use true resurrection without problem (I'm not strict about that). Only with a fast TPK would the campaign end. At such levels, the PCs had allies who would learn of their demise, teleport there, collect bodies, kill stragglers, etc. The campaign wasn't in danger, but PCs could still be taken out of the action.

I think by the time epic levels are hit, PCs deserve a measure of "senioritis" in the campaign. It's a double-edged sword. They have the power and prestige to throw their weight around (abiding the laws, preferably), but they've made names for themselves, and should expect rivals, bounty hunters, and assassins. There should be a reasonable balance between confidence and fear based on the level of the party.

__________________
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"

Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"

"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."

~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

When the Ranger got swallowed by a Colossal Half-Black Dragon Catfish...

I'm pretty sure my players realized there were bigger fish they could fry.

However, instead of frying it, they ran in terror.

Go Figure.

 

[Corsair]

The problem with the "always bigger fish" is that it creates PCs who constantly live in fear. Having to worry about warding your home and having people take turns on watch even when staying in the nicest inn the town has, sucks.