D&D 5E DMs Expectations for Next

Ahnehnois

First Post
If I'm going to stop playing 4e I need the following (this is not a list of wants, this is needs. 4e is a perfectly good game that I'm happy with and have no intention of switching from unless I see something better):

- It needs to have a clear sense of what characters can do, what they cannot do, and what they can be expected to to be able to do all the way from level one to whatever level the game ends at. Those abilities should be roughly balanced between classes. Not exactly balanced but the same ballpark is necessary. Characters cannot be playing wildly different games at any point.

- Monsters must be easy to create and the math behind them must be standardized. Also there should be a clear idea of what monsters should be able to do at certain difficulties. When designing my own monsters I must be able to say "The party is level X therefore it's appropriate that I give the monster the ability to do Y to them." I should not especially have to consider the party's composition or their specific abilities when designing or appropriating monsters.

- The game must be a fun and interesting game without the addition of any roleplaying whatsoever. I know it sounds like an odd requirement but the engine must be able to run before we start talking about building a car around it. Roleplaying should make the game even more fun. We shouldn't be having fun roleplaying in spite of the game.
Top stop playing 3e, I'd need:

-Characters defined in open-ended fashion so I can make any character I want, and have it be reasonably functional and simple.

-Monsters created with the same level of detail as all characters, that routinely have mechanicallty interesting, game-breaking, and expectation-defying abilities that exist outside of any concept of making a balanced encounter fot a party.

-A customizable exoskeleton of a system that is built around the roleplaying of the individual group. Characters that reflect the players' intentions. System rules that reflect the DM's style. Options for everyone.

Not that the OP here is bad, but I read those points and don't think there's a lot of room for compromise based on what I think would be a usable game system.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Not that the OP here is bad, but I read those points and don't think there's a lot of room for compromise based on what I think would be a usable game system.
Compromises are often things that both parties can agree to hate equally. ;) I'm not inclined to optimism, myself, but this is an interesting challenge:


- It needs to have a clear sense of what characters can do, what they cannot do, and what they can be expected to to be able to do all the way from level one to whatever level the game ends at. Those abilities should be roughly balanced between classes. Not exactly balanced but the same ballpark is necessary. Characters cannot be playing wildly different games at any point.
-Characters defined in open-ended fashion so I can make any character I want, and have it be reasonably functional and simple.
'Reasonably functional and simple' dovetails well with 'characters cannot be playing wildly different games at any point.' If we're willing to accept that functionality is important, balance can be a part of that, and simplicity aids balance, as well - There we have basis for class designs and more detailed 'build' rules that could fill both your requirements. Taken to the extreme, an 'open ended' character-creation system /couldn't/ be class based, classes just aren't that open-ended - and I'm sure 5e couldn't be taken to that extreme (nor would either of you want that). So the open-endedness would have to come from non-class options (races, kits, themes, PrCs, backgrounds, or whatever) and from multi-classing of some sort. Allowing swapping in/out/around abilities from multiple sources like that would require that any ability that can be swapped out for another be /balanced/ with that other ability, which, if done well, would also deliver on that 'clear sense of what characters can do at all levels.'

- Monsters must be easy to create and the math behind them must be standardized. Also there should be a clear idea of what monsters should be able to do at certain difficulties. When designing my own monsters I must be able to say "The party is level X therefore it's appropriate that I give the monster the ability to do Y to them." I should not especially have to consider the party's composition or their specific abilities when designing or appropriating monsters.
-Monsters created with the same level of detail as all characters, that routinely have mechanicallty interesting, game-breaking, and expectation-defying abilities that exist outside of any concept of making a balanced encounter fot a party.
"Routinely expectation-defying" seems a little contradictory to me. ;) There is some room for compromise, here. For instance, you don't object to monster design being independent of party composition. Easy-to-create and 'detailed' aren't mutually exclusive, as long as the level of detail isn't fixed by mechanical necessity, but left to the DM. A formulaic 'base' for monster design for a given role/level wouldn't get in the way of an exception-based approach to monster abilities that'd make it easy for DMs to throw in 'surprising' monsters, even to the point of all their monsters being 'surprising,' every time.

- The game must be a fun and interesting game without the addition of any roleplaying whatsoever. I know it sounds like an odd requirement but the engine must be able to run before we start talking about building a car around it. Roleplaying should make the game even more fun. We shouldn't be having fun roleplaying in spite of the game.
-A customizable exoskeleton of a system that is built around the roleplaying of the individual group. Characters that reflect the players' intentions. System rules that reflect the DM's style. Options for everyone.
I actually see a lot of potential for reconciling these two views. A functional (fun/interesting/balanced) system makes a fine base-line for customization, as well as being playable in it's own right. Whether you're adding mechanics or adding RP, it doesn't hurt to be adding to something that already works.
 

VinylTap

First Post
I think this is something that's fairly high up on the developers aims for the system. I think it will be a nice irony if the "4th ed style" module they end up releasing becomes a mainstay just because it helps make combat fun. Especially if things like AoO stay out of the core rules.

When they're messing around with "bounded accuracy" its because they're trying to make a level field for play balance.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Hmm... OK, there is /one/ thing that, as a DM, I'd be happy to see 5e do: work the reverse of the sea-change upon the community that 3e did, and restore a more general acceptance of variants and house rules. That does make a DM's job easier, even a really 'good' DM who can fix anything - because players who think everything should be 'RAW' can be put off by any fix, no matter how reasonable.

I know this seems the case on the messageboards, but I'm not really sure this "sea-change" actually occurred among the general gaming public. House rules still seem pretty common among the groups I encounter.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I know this seems the case on the messageboards, but I'm not really sure this "sea-change" actually occurred among the general gaming public. House rules still seem pretty common among the groups I encounter.
Oh, it's certainly the on-line community that has it the worst, but I definitely noticed it in person, too. I'd meet players who insisted they be able to use this or that PrC or feat or whatever /because they'd bought the book/. A strange attitude when you're used to classic D&D.
 

Hussar

Legend
Oh, it's certainly the on-line community that has it the worst, but I definitely noticed it in person, too. I'd meet players who insisted they be able to use this or that PrC or feat or whatever /because they'd bought the book/. A strange attitude when you're used to classic D&D.

Really? Back in the day, this was pretty standard for anyone I played with. Someone picked up a Dragon Magazine, or Unearthed Arcana or whatever and wanted to play using it. Why would you buy a book and not expect to use it? Particularly back in the day when everything was "Official TSR" products and carried the TSR stamp of approval for use in your game?

Ah, well, different strokes.

As far as expectations go, I only have one thing that is an absolute must. I must be able to prep an adventure in about an hour, without cutting corners or skipping steps. If we go back to the workload that 3e dumped on me as a DM, I'm not interested. Even 2e got to be a pain after a while.

I want my prep to play time to be about 1:4. That's what I've got now, using pen and paper and no computer assistance. Anything less than that and I'll play, but, I certainly won't run.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Really? Back in the day, this was pretty standard for anyone I played with. Someone picked up a Dragon Magazine, or Unearthed Arcana or whatever and wanted to play using it. Why would you buy a book and not expect to use it? Particularly back in the day when everything was "Official TSR" products and carried the TSR stamp of approval for use in your game?

Yeah, I saw a bit of that too. It was a well-known (and well-lampooned in Knights of the Dinner Table) phenomenon even then. I might agree that there all together too many players who think that way these days - that their purchase of the sourcebook means it has to be approved by the DM or that RAW must be adhered to. But I thought there were too many back then too.
 

avin

First Post
I want a few things:

1. Rules tied to fluff (4E fails on that);
2. Balanced classes (3.5 fails on that);
3. Monster fluff back to Monster Manuals (it seems this is in);
4. Planescape.
 


Crazy Jerome

First Post
Yeah, I saw a bit of that too. It was a well-known (and well-lampooned in Knights of the Dinner Table) phenomenon even then. I might agree that there all together too many players who think that way these days - that their purchase of the sourcebook means it has to be approved by the DM or that RAW must be adhered to. But I thought there were too many back then too.

Our attitude back in the day was that any old thing in Dragon was at least worth trying, if someone wanted to, but we viewed all such additions with a gimlet eye. That is, after it got a fair try, the whole group would tend to approve it for future use or not--or perhaps only in certain situations.

Group authority, if reached by discussion and consensus (as opposed to, say, browbeating and other such tactics) tends to have no problem drawing such firm lines. It just doesn't draw them in ways that the publisher can predict reliably. :D
 

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