D&D 5E (2024) DnD 5e designer [Mike Mearls] explains how INDIE RPGs are taking over

[Saracenus]

@mearls I rewatched your vid with Questing Beast and I know you briefly made the aside that you failed with 4e D&D. And you are right in the sense that it did not ignite the D&D fanbase the way that previous editions or 5e have.

And with that metric it was a failure at WotC, however, I was running weekly games of D&D Encounters at my FLNGS (shout out to Guardian Games) that had 7 tables and I had to turn people away. 4e was an entry point for quite a few people in Portland.

I will say that 4e Dark Sun was quite frankly the best version of that campaign world we have seen so far (IMHO). My buddy Teos made an Organize Play campaign out of it.

4e was also the version that I discovered @SlyFlourish and his ever helpful DM advice. He certainly would not have the name he uses on his blog without it.

And finally I don't think Flee Mortals or Draw Steel by MCDM (@mattcolville) would be the same thing or potentially exist at all without it.

So by that metric, I don't see your work on 4e as a failure. There was plenty of work in 4e that has inspired designers and players alike today.

 

[Zaukrie]

@mearls I rewatched your vid with Questing Beast and I know you briefly made the aside that you failed with 4e D&D. And you are right in the sense that it did not ignite the D&D fanbase the way that previous editions or 5e had.

And with that metric it was a failure at WotC, however, I was running weekly games of D&D Encounters at my FLNGS (shout out to Guardian Games) that had 7 tables and I had to turn people away. 4e was an entry point for quite a few people in Portland.

I will say that 4e Dark Sun was quite frankly the best version of that campaign world we have seen so far (IMHO). My buddy Teos made an Organize Play campaign out of it.

4e was also the version that I discovered @SlyFlourish and his ever helpful DM advice. He certainly would not have the name he uses on his blog without it.

And finally I don't think Flee Mortals or Draw Steel by MCDM (@mattcolville) would be the same thing or potentially exist at all without it.

So by that metric, I don't see your work on 4e as a failure. There was plenty of work in 4e that has inspired designers and players alike today.

4e is the best DND version.

 

[GrimCo]

Was 4e best version? Yes, no, maybe. Depends who you ask and what they want out of game. Was it best designed from perspective of heaving focused vision, intended play style and rules that supported that style very well? Hell yea. At it's heart, it's mmo style tactical skirmish game. If that style is your jam, 4e is game for you. Personally, i don't like 4e at all from player side, but out of all previous editions, as a DM, if i was force to choose one and run it, i would pick 4e because it's so DM friendly.

Now, onto some things from video. D&D is international brand. D&D to ttrpgs is same as Kleenex, Coke or Golf. Product that defines category. With that in mind, revenue stream coming in, from books and sets, in tens of millions of dollars, isn't that big of a stretch. Taking into account just "western market", we are looking at 1.2 billion people ( US&Canada, Europe, Australia&NZ), if we add Japan and Korea to the mix, it's 1.35 billion people. 500m as complete d&d revenue (books, subscriptions, licensing rights etc) isn't that far fetched number. But there is also another factor, online digital direct sales. No more shipping costs that are sometimes higher than book costs. It's flat price. It makes global market availability even higher. So hitting 9 digits in book sales revenue on global 7 billion people market is feasible, cause those revenue from digital books is higher than physical ones.

 

[cranberry]

I don't know how this could be accomplished, but it would be helpful for other games if somehow D&D wasn't the default when people think of TTRPGs.

 

[Desdichado]

Was 4e best version? Yes, no, maybe. Depends who you ask and what they want out of game. Was it best designed from perspective of heaving focused vision, intended play style and rules that supported that style very well? Hell yea. At it's heart, it's mmo style tactical skirmish game. If that style is your jam, 4e is game for you. Personally, i don't like 4e at all from player side, but out of all previous editions, as a DM, if i was force to choose one and run it, i would pick 4e because it's so DM friendly.

4e wasn't the kind of game that I was looking for at all, but I loved how they played a little more fast and loose with a lot of the D&Disms in the implied setting. I know a lot of people weren't happy about some of those changes, but I thought they were great. And the Nentir Vale setting that wasn't ever exactly published as a setting, but you could kind of use anyway is actually probably my favorite D&D setting.

 

[Stormonu]

I don't know how this could be accomplished, but it would be helpful for other games if somehow D&D wasn't the default when people think of TTRPGs.

Best analogy I can come up with is that the existence of McDonald's burgers doesn't harm my or others love of Mugshot's burgers, nor does it threaten their existance.

D&D may be what most people are familiar with, but if that is all they ever involve themselves in, that's on them. Even my local book store probably has more RPGs on its shelves than it has D&D books.

 

[Umbran]

• We don't need D&D to grow the hobby.
• We also don't need to kill D&D and WotC/Hasbro to grow the hobby.

Mike's basic take, concentrate on developing a cool game and stop worrying about D&D.

I think that, no matter what we do, we will likely end up with one or two games in the "big fish" seat - that's how healthy market dynamics play out. Having a market of all small indies isn't actually a stable situation, and that state either goes to having some dominant forces, or collapse. And, in a healthy market, the big fish acts like a buffer, and actually supports greater diversity among the smaller players.

I agree with Mike that smaller game developers and publishers should stop worrying about D&D. I also think they should stop worrying about "growing the hobby" - that's not the small publisher's job.

We could go on to note that the entire idea that your market always needs to grow is, itself, an unhealthy concept, that leads to boom and bust dynamics.

 

[Maxperson]

WotC's own presence at GenCon has been very spotty since at least the 4E era. They were there for the launch of 5E and then didn't come back, announcing that they were going to concentrate on smaller cons instead. I gather they will be there this year, but I think that might be the first time since 2014? And the fact that they outsourced their Adventurer's League games to another company also makes it feel like they just don't care about GenCon. Paizo, on the other hand, is all over the banners, hands out free swag in the dealer's room (at least in some years), etc.

Obviously, D&D still does okay at GenCon. I just suspect WotC's lack of interest means that the numbers aren't necessarily accurate when it comes to overall market share "in the wild."

Why? I can tell that speaking for myself, when I decide to play D&D at a convention or anywhere else, where WotC is showing up has never been on my radar. I don't see why WotC having a presence there would make a difference other than an artificial increase if they decide to run some extra games.

 

[Gorck]

Well, as long as we get one of the Mikes.

Mikes are fine. As long as it’s not a Todd*

*a joke for those who watched the Eldritch Lorecast this week.

 

[bedir than]

Mikes are fine. As long as it’s not a Todd*

None taken