DnD and epic high fantasy

[Dundragon]

Is it just me, or is it really hard to promote a sense of chivalry and valor? It seems to me that as characters gain levels into the mid-high levels and up (around 9 or 10+), they stray increasingly from the romantic notions of an epic-fantasy roleplaying game, and begin to play in a paranoid fashion. Even the paladins and clerics go for stealth as often as possible, and heroic acts of courage involve greater risks than pretty much anyone is willing to face.

I suppose this is due to the fact that as the villains also gain levels (especially things like wizards, sorcerers, and thieves) they gain enough power to outright kill most of the party if they can catch them unawares.

I DM a FR campaign, and I've heard plenty of stuff about it being munchkinland, and overpowered - but even without the PrCs and extra spells, high level DnD characters have access to amazing things just from the PHB. I don't want to run a low magic campaign, because then I mess up many of the challenge ratings, and anger the players who want to play spellcasting classes.

But the alternative seems to take some of the fun out of roleplaying. I can understand that waltzing in the front gate of an evil wizards castle is asking to be killed, but when my players do things like cast invisibility on the party, cast silence on a rock or two to keep mages from being able to hurt them if they get to close, make sure they are undetectable, and sneak in through a broken window (that the enemy did not hear because of the silence), what can I do? It seems like a great plan, but I'm having trouble roleplaying the villains.

One would think that basically all high powered villains have enough experience fighting adventurers that they would know about all the standard tactics (silence on a rock, invisibility, etc). But I feel like if I still have them walk into an ambush, or get hurt by some other DM-device that might discourage the uber-stealth approach, that they will think that I am specifically engineering my adventures to trip them up. I am trying to run a realistic campaign, but my villains are getting killed off.

Throwing higher CR monsters at them seems to be the standard approach, but I am looking for something more refined. Anyone have these problems too? And how do you solve them?

Thanks,

[OT] - hey IronChuchu, I think you know what I am talking about, yes?

 

[Grandpa]

This reminds me of a post someone (Arcady?) made long long ago about giving attack bonuses (+2) when players tried something more exciting or "cinematic," like swinging from a chandelier onto the enemy or shooting an arrow into whatever held the chandelier to have it fall on the enemy. I've never used this mechanic myself, but maybe the same thing could be applied for "heroic" efforts made by your PCs.

Perhaps this bonus could even be rationalized as the enemy expecting one thing and having something else happen, instead.

 

[Echoes]

This was mentioned in another thread:

If you've got a powerful spellcasting villain, have him or her use scry. A lot.

A diviner becomes a very powerful enemy as long as he's backed up by a couple of firepower types, and some fighter bodyguards. Its much harder to take on a well organized group of enemies with specific strengths than it is to fight the proverbial lone wizard in a tower who surrounds himself with hundres of fairly worthless henchmen.

If a powerful villian KNOWS that the PCs are out to get him, he's going to be just as paranoid as the PCs are...improved invisibility at all times, programmed illusions, etc. Even a fighter type with some common sense is going to be ready for a sneaky group. I don't think that the characters would neccessarily think that you were trying to trip them up. If THEY know about certain tactics, I think its very reasonable that the villians would too.

At higher levels, too, its good to place fights in odd or interesting locations. Some very exciting combats have come out of platforms, or spiral staircases, or libraries. Or, you could go moralistic on your players--bad guys take hostages, and have the simple advantage that they don't have to fight fair at all. Have the villian slit a couple of throats--if the PCs don't react to that then they aren't worth their weight as players. It also keeps up an epic feel--they're helping the little guy hostage despite the danger to themselves.

Hmm. That's it for now. I hope some of these musings were helpful.

Laters,
-John-

 

[Numion]

Try a different kind of villain. Someone they cant just attack with SWAT tactics. For example, a well connected but corrupted city official. He doesn't even have to be a spellcaster or otherwise powerful individual; that's not the point. Make him an expert, level 5. (if party level is.. say 10)

The adventure would consist of PCs trying to somehow uncover some shady plot made by this mystery guy. He would operate in conventional manners, so that simple detect magic / dispel magic spells wouldn't foil his plans. Add a pinch of blackmail / stolen heirlooms / missing persons / doppelgangers and you have a traditional City Adventure (TM).

Wise players should understand that they can't Just Kill Him, not before they uncover his plot anyway. When you have finished writing such a plot, read all the divination spells in PHB so that it won't be shortcircuited by any one spell.

 

[Tonguez]

Hero Points

Give points for each 'heroic' act which can be used as heroes luck to get out of desperate situations, bonuses to BAB, Save or Skill checks or used to increase skill ranks

 

[Dundragon]

Give points for each 'heroic' act which can be used as heroes luck to get out of desperate situations, bonuses to BAB, Save or Skill checks or used to increase skill ranks

But then it comes down to 'what is my definition of a heroic act', which may be different from my players' definitions, and that may cause arguments. Someone might think what they did was heroic...and I may disagree.

 

[Victim]

No one acts in a chivalrous, honorable manner because it's much too tempting not to. In a situation without magic, getting the drop on someone is devasting enough. If you can be hasted, improved invisible, and buffed so much before battle that victory is almost assured - and other's can do the same to you if you don't take precautions - then not taking such an advantage is almost suicide.

Maybe you want some sort of Geneva convention that would set rules for honorable combat between civilized races. Certain spells could be reserved for use against monster races or in spell-battle, but not general combat. And then the rules would have to be enforced by some reasonably powerful people. Otherwise, the dangers of going without "cheesy" magics would be insane.

Foes that haven't agreed to the Convention might be fair game for all out magical attack. Otherwise, harsh punishments would be imposed on violators.

Such a convention might make the quasi-medieval assumptions in most worlds more plausible, provide some protection for normal folk from leveled characters, and make the prospect of all out magical war something to be feared.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If your adventures are ones that favor Special Ops tactics, then that is what PCs will become good at.

Fighting fire with fire will not help. That only encourages them. Before you know it they will sleep only in a Rope Trick inside a Leomund's Secure Shelter with magically lifelike dummies sleeping in the beds and Alarm spells everywhere.

One route is to get the PCs involved in personal goals outside of crawling into dungeons and taking loot from their foes.

Think also about tasks and adventures that really highlight the abilities of individual characters. That helps makes creating an enjoyable story more of a collaboration than a competition.

That said, consider lots of patrols with dogs. Lots and lots.

Anyone who is powerful enough to draw attention from ~7th level opponents knows he has to contend with Silence, Invisibility, Fly, Dimension Door, and even Scry. While the defense cannot be perfect, they will have to be good enough to cause an alarm to be sounded within ~1-2 minutes of entry.

Think about what you want the PCs to do other than stealth tactics. And figure out how to reward them for that.

 

[IronChuchu]

Ok, as a player in Dundragon's game (The paladin in fact), I think I can shed a bit of light on the situation. He just took over mid campaign from another DM (We'll call him A) and this is where the problem stems from.
While DM A is an excellent DM, he regularly challenges us with encounters several (3-4) CRs higher than we are. When faced with situations like that, any player who wants to live will adapt his tactics.
I strongly agree with the poster above who stated that the PCs need personal goals. I sent DM A a 2-3 page background on my character that was (IMHO of course) rife with characters, plot hooks, and intrigue before the campaign even started. 9 sessions later, not a bit of it was even referenced that I didn't specifically go out of my way to do so.
The core problem here is switching in mid campaign from characters that are used to facing and defeating enemies that overpower them in every way to a more standard style game.
We played Dundragon's first session last night, and we blew through it thanks to good tactics and teamwork. I'm getting tired of the constant paranoia also, but its really hard to let your guard down after constantly being jacked.
(Edited for clarity and to fix typos)

 

[Ishamael]

That said, consider lots of patrols with dogs. Lots and lots.

Why have I never thought of that? I've been a DM for 11 years, and I have never once used a patrol with dogs. Strange....really strange.

Thanks for the idea.