D&D 5E Do Away with Weapon Attack, Magic Attack, Save Bonuses

[ren1999]

If we just award more ability score bonuses when leveling up, then level does have an impact on rolls. Why do we need Weapon Attack Bonuses, Magic Attack Bonuses and Save Bonuses?

We've added these 5E class bonus tables like Pathfinder. I hate that aspect of Pathfinder.

Do away with all these tables and just modify the level advancement table in the play test to something like this below.

Level-Up Awards

1st level constitution score+1hd, 3 background skills, 3 powers, 1 main action, 1 off-hand action, and 1 reaction
2nd level +1hd, +1 skill, or skill+1
3rd level +1hd, +1 power
4th level +1hd, ability+1
5th level +1hd, +1 skill, or skill+1
6th level +1hd, +1 power
7th level +1hd, ability+1
8th level +1hd, +1 skill, or skill+1
9th level +1hd, +1 power
10th level +1hd, ability+1
11th level +1hd, +1 skill, or skill+1
12th level +1hd, +1 power
13th level +1hd, ability+1
14th level +1hd, +1 skill, or skill+1
15th level +1hd, +1 power
16th level +1hd, ability+1
17th level +1hd, +1 skill, or skill+1
18th level +1hd, +1 power
19th level +1hd, ability+1
20th level +1hd, +1 skill, or skill+1
21st level +1hd, +1 power
22nd level +1hd, ability+1
23rd level +1hd, +1 skill, or skill+1
24th level +1hd, +1 power
25th level +1hd, ability+1
26th level +1hd, +1 skill, or skill+1
27th level +1hd, +1 power
28th level +1hd, ability+1
29th level +1hd, +1 skill, or skill+1
30th level +1hd, +1 power

 

[Li Shenron]

If we just award more ability score bonuses when leveling up, then level does have an impact on rolls. Why do we need Weapon Attack Bonuses, Magic Attack Bonuses and Save Bonuses?

While this may be true, increasing ability scores gives a very "superheroes" feeling to the game, while all the other bonuses clearly represent training in doing something and therefore give a very "we learned all these through hard work" feeling.

I would rather eliminate ability score increases completey, and use those compentence bonuses only, since the overall mechanical effect on the game is then the same.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Yes, if any draining effect were to happen to a character then suddenly their years of swordsmanship would count for nothing - I prefer competence increase to raw ability increase.

 

[ren1999]

Yes, if any draining effect were to happen to a character then suddenly their years of swordsmanship would count for nothing - I prefer competence increase to raw ability increase.

You make a good point there.

 

[Droogie]

Maybe it's time to drop the attack bonuses entirely? Can we make combat a skill you take like any other, just like most other modern RPGs out there?

 

[howandwhy99]

Ironically, skills are actually anti-modern.

 

[Droogie]

Ironically, skills are actually anti-modern.

Ok, fair enough. Although, i would say they are less modern, rather than anti- modern. Still, the question stands. Do we allow a fighter to be trained in the melee combat skill, or make room in the book for bigger charts and extra rules? Is tradition and elegant rules design mutually exclusive?

 

[hbarsquared]

I, too, agree with not having those silly Weapon/Magic Attack bonuses. It seems to make things needlessly complicated, a barrier to casual and new players, and a little too "gamist."

Although upping the ability score bonuses might result in similar math, I don't think that's the answer, either. It does get to feel kind of superhero-y and begins to feel like a numbers game which goes against the "bounded accuracy" goal. The max 20 has grown on me, too.

I'm not sure of the answer. Assuming magic items was another solution to making sure the numbers went up at the right pace: we see the reaction to that.

I would very much like to see the "proficiency bonus" with weapons come back, and re-introduce implements. That makes sense to me. Perhaps instead of "weapon attack" going up, your proficiency bonus goes up with level?

For example, instead of this:

Level   Weapon Attack   Magic Attack
1             +1             +2
2             +1             +3
3             +1             +3
4             +2             +4

It looks like this:

Weapon Proficiencies: dagger, staff
Implement Proficiencies: orb, staff, wand

Weapon   Prof.   Dmg
---------------------
dagger    +3      1d4
staff     +2      1d6


Level   Proficiency Bonus
1             +1
2             +1
3             +2
4             +2

Or something...

 

[Droogie]

I, too, agree with not having those silly Weapon/Magic Attack bonuses. It seems to make things needlessly complicated, a barrier to casual and new players, and a little too "gamist."

Although upping the ability score bonuses might result in similar math, I don't think that's the answer, either. It does get to feel kind of superhero-y and begins to feel like a numbers game which goes against the "bounded accuracy" goal. The max 20 has grown on me, too.

I'm not sure of the answer. Assuming magic items was another solution to making sure the numbers went up at the right pace: we see the reaction to that.

I would very much like to see the "proficiency bonus" with weapons come back, and re-introduce implements. That makes sense to me. Perhaps instead of "weapon attack" going up, your proficiency bonus goes up with level?

For example, instead of this:

Level   Weapon Attack   Magic Attack
1             +1             +2
2             +1             +3
3             +1             +3
4             +2             +4

It looks like this:

Weapon Proficiencies: dagger, staff
Implement Proficiencies: orb, staff, wand

Weapon   Prof.   Dmg
---------------------
dagger    +3      1d4
staff     +2      1d6


Level   Proficiency Bonus
1             +1
2             +1
3             +2
4             +2

Or something...

Not sure if this does much to fix things...you've just moved the attack bonus chart from the class chapter to the equipment chapter. This reminds me of the days when your proficiency with a weapon had less to do with talent and skill, and more about the number of plusses on your sword. I get the feeling that D&D fans are trying to move away from that.

 

[am181d]

I'd really prefer *all* ability scores scale with level, though I understand why it's problematic.

One of my pet peeves is that *any* 20th level character has a low Charisma. Higher level characters should ooze menace.