Do castles make sense in a world of dragons & spells?

[Hereticus]

When I think of a "castle" in D&D terms, I think of a walled city with many key structures inside it. Outside the main wall would be a kill zone, lacking places for defenders to take cover. Inside the main walls would be other smaller walls in case the main walls were breached. Beneath the city would be a network of tunnels to help precipitate a counterattack. Many of the main buildings would also be fortified, such as palaces, temples, guild headquarters and militia bases.

A medieval castle on its own would be a sitting duck. It could only exist as one of many structures inside a walled city.

 

[Hussar]

But, then again, many castles came before the city. The city grew because the castle was there, not the other way around. A very large number of medieval castles were very much on their own.

Now, as far as your Drow stronghold, that's a bit trickier. I suppose you really have to differentiate here. For one, a Drow stronghold certainly isn't concerned with flying opponents, but burrowing ones would be a right bitch. Elementals would be absolutely devasting to castles of any kind.

OTOH, I don't care if it's defensible or not, a FLYING castle is just cool.

 

[Stoat]

You know, thinking about this just now, really is "castles exist" a fact in D&D? I'm specifically thinking of the latest editions -- D&D3, D&D4. Are there any rules references to castles in the core books? I know the B/X D&D set has castle rules, and the AD&D1 DMG has them. I can't remember if AD&D2 had castle rules in the core books.

I'm not even certain that the D&D3 and D&D4 core books even mention castles as fluff. Surely they do, but if I'm not remembering anything, it must not be an important mention.

Can someone with a pdf version of the core books do a word search for "castle". And compare the results with a search for "magic".

Bullgrit

The Keep on the Shadowfell was presumably a traditional European-style castle before it fell to ruin. Winterhaven is a walled town with a gatehouse. I imagine castles are present in other WotC adventures as well.

I don't have my books with me, but I'm pretty sure the 3.0 and 3.5 DMG's had purchase prices for castles.

On topic, I think the interesting question is "at what level of magic does the traditional Europeanish castle become obsolete?"

Obviously, such a structure is useless if the defenders can reasonably expect to fight a wave of earth elementals supported by a ancient red dragon. On the other hand, I think it would stand up pretty well to say, 500 orc warriors supported by a 6th level wizard with two 3rd level apprentices.

 

[Hereticus]

But, then again, many castles came before the city. The city grew because the castle was there, not the other way around. A very large number of medieval castles were very much on their own.

Maybe in a D&D world they were a long time ago, like your example. But in a world with magic and mythical creatures a lone castle would likely be too vulnerable to survive long. Unless the owner could replace the personnel losses and constantly rebuild.

Now, as far as your Drow stronghold, that's a bit trickier. I suppose you really have to differentiate here. For one, a Drow stronghold certainly isn't concerned with flying opponents, but burrowing ones would be a right bitch. Elementals would be absolutely devasting to castles of any kind.

When playing a drow noble attached to a House, we has subservient earth elementals patrolling above and beneath the compound. The ground below and the ceiling above were both vulnerable.

OTOH, I don't care if it's defensible or not, a FLYING castle is just cool.

On that I concur fully!

 

[Hereticus]

I don't have my books with me, but I'm pretty sure the 3.0 and 3.5 DMG's had purchase prices for castles.

It would probably be less expensive to hire some henchcritters and an army, then take the castle you want.

On topic, I think the interesting question is "at what level of magic does the traditional Europeanish castle become obsolete?"

When the attackers have a higher level than the defenders. 15th level attackers would blow away 11th level defenders, but would be wiped out by defenders with Shapechange and Foresight.

Obviously, such a structure is useless if the defenders can reasonably expect to fight a wave of earth elementals supported by a ancient red dragon. On the other hand, I think it would stand up pretty well to say, 500 orc warriors supported by a 6th level wizard with two 3rd level apprentices.

Not if I could summon by own Elemental Swarm, or take out the Dragon with a Weird or Implosion spell.

 

[Hussar]

It would probably be less expensive to hire some henchcritters and an army, then take the castle you want.



When the attackers have a higher level than the defenders. 15th level attackers would blow away 11th level defenders, but would be wiped out by defenders with Shapechange and Foresight.



Not if I could summon by own Elemental Swarm, or take out the Dragon with a Weird or Implosion spell.

I think you're proving his point. If you are at the point where you have an 18th level cleric or wizard on call to defend every castle, then why have castles in the first place? Why not use the immense magical power that you have at your command and create extradimentional cities with a small, easily defended gate?

It's very, very unlikely that you will have that kind of power to defend every castle, and, if you do, then the castle pretty much becomes obsolete. I think it's a very intersting question actually, because the attackers don't need Archmages to attack. Many of the creatures have innate abilities - giants, treants, molds and jellies, - that sort of thing that would be fairly easy and cheap to deploy whereas the defender is pretty much required to have massive expenses keeping very high level characters on call to defend.

I really do think there is a tipping point where the level of fantasy makes the traditional castle pretty obsolete.

As far as cities go - well, how do you get the city without the castle to defend it? The reason you got cities is because the castle pacified the area in the first place. Without that pacification, the city would be easy pickings for pretty much anyone. And a walled city without a castle is very, very weak.

 

[Celebrim]

I really do think there is a tipping point where the level of fantasy makes the traditional castle pretty obsolete.

I'm not so sure that the level of magic is the issue. I think the key questions are economic.

1) Supposing you have a fantasy army and a million gold peices to make a castle. What peice of equipment you buy instead of the castle that would serve your army/nation better?
2) Even if you don't build a castle, you still might need need to house and shelter your fantasy army. Does spending some incremental additional cost of fortifying the barracks, stables, and so forth where you shelter your army justify itself?
3) Can you buy high level characters? That is, with sufficient economic expenditure, can you create high level characters from low level characters through some sort of training program, and if so, what does it cost? It may well be true that a castle is of less value than an 18th level wizard, but if 18th level wizards aren't on the market, you may still end up buying the castle.
4) Is the supply of fantastic creatures effectively elastic, such that it increases with demand, or is the supply of fantastic creatures basically fixed and spending more money to obtain them has a greatly diminishing return. If that is the case, then even if you'd rather have dragons or giants in your employ, you still might buy castles instead.
5) Is the upkeep, directly and indirectly, of magic items, fantastic creatures, and high level characters less than or greater than the upkeep of castles? Castles never create plagues, seek to overthrow you, summon up horrors from beyond, or decide to eat your subjects. Generally speaking, do your subjects feel safer and more contented with your rule if you build castles, than if you employ dragons, giants, or vampires or whatever?

 

[Haltherrion]

I'm not so sure that the level of magic is the issue. I think the key questions are economic.

I think it is a combination of both magic and economics. I would phrase it instead as:

I think there is a tipping point where the availability of powerful magic makes castles unlikely.

Availability will include a significant economic component. It also includes such setting specific stuff as just how many people in a population have the aptitude for it and how quickly can you train them.

"Powerful magic" is a "level of fantasy" element. The magic available needs to have some military utility of course.

 

[Haltherrion]

And let's not get too dismissive of medieval fortifications. When the 13th century constructed Harlech was besieged by cannon in 1647, it still held out for nine months.

Interestingly, at the beginning of some of the Welsh rebellions in the period after Edward's Welsh castles were built, they were often garrisoned by small numbers of men- 18-25 men-at-arms.

They made military-economic sense (you raised the economic issue on a later post) because despite the high creation cost, once in place they projected a large amount of presence for a fairly low on-going cost due to the small garrison. And in even this small number of men could hold off much larger forces long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

But in a D&D world, set your mid-level adventuring party the task of taking such a castle and how many would really fail? You could, of course, put a high level lord in the castle but that doesn't seem to be consistent with how those castles were garrisoned.

Of course, the defenders could put a bigger/more effective garrison in the castle but that changes the economic proposition considerably. And already some of the anti-magic defenses suggested on this thread have increased the cost and upkeep of these places. Does the castle continue to make sense or are there other alternatives? At what point is the value in the defenders and not in the stone structure? When it tips to the former, why build the latter?

We like to think of the Welsh castles in particular as romantic bastions but they were built as hard-hearted methods of projecting imperial power. They existed because the lord who built them thought that was the best way to subjugate Wales.

 

[Celebrim]

I think it is a combination of both magic and economics. I would phrase it instead as:

I think there is a tipping point where the availability of powerful magic makes castles unlikely.

Again, I'm not sure. We will have to define 'availability of powerful magic' more unlikely precisely because it does include a signficant economic component. The question the availability of powerful magic raises is:

6) If powerful magic is readily available, does the decreased economic cost of razing a castle via destructive magic outweigh the decreased economic cost of building castles using fantastic means.

After all, once we start talking about readily available high magic, we aren't just talking about the ability to conjure fireballs and earthquakes, but stone giant construction teams, using earth elementals as earth movers, lyres of building, erecting structures using wall of stone and wall of iron spells, floating stone blocks into place using multiple tenser's floating disks, mattocks of the titans, evacuavations using magical burrowers, magically hardened stone and wood, and so forth. If magic can let you build a castle in a few weeks using relatively cheap means, then the fact that someone else can knock one down in a few hours is relatively less important. The fact that the castle can get knocked down in hours after some minor resistance might still be a better result than the garrison massacred in mere seconds or minutes without any chance of resistance.

It also includes such setting specific stuff as just how many people in a population have the aptitude for it and how quickly can you train them.

There are two separate questions here. How common is magic, and how common is high level magic. As I said, in my campaign, low level magic is pervasive (anyone can be taught magic that could learn a second langauge, calculus, reading musicial notation, high school geometry), but high level magic is rare because only a few people can do it (people like the PC's) without years and years of training. Few humans can get above 6th level before dying of old age. Yet, at the same time, very high level and very powerful magic exists, its just not something that is governed by economics. Spending more money won't get you more high level magic, because the supply is basically fixed.

"Powerful magic" is a "level of fantasy" element. The magic available needs to have some military utility of course.

Having 'powerful magic' in the setting is not the same as having 'powerful magic available as an economic commodity'.