Do creatures called via Gate count as Summoned or Conjured?

[Arravis]

Anyone? Am I totally off on this one? The spell seems to make no mention of the alignment of the Conjured or Summoned creature...

 

[Urbanmech]

Protection from Evil and Magic Circle both only protect you from attacks from summoned *evil and neutral* creatures, a good summoned creature could attack a person warded with protection from evil. Also protection from evil does not protect you from weapon attacks by summoned creatures of any alignment. So a summoned salamander could still attack a person warded with protection from evil with its long spear.

From the SDR: (Protection from Evil)
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned or conjured creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to
recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good elementals and outsiders are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned or
conjured creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a
creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.

 

[Arravis]

Groovy... so does Unhallow work as a barrier at it's edges, is the entire area affected as such, or just those within it of the proper alignment?

 

[Christian]

OK, I'm back. (I went and actually gamed rather than just posting about it. )

By the exact text of the spell, a Magic Circle spell in the standard configuration does not ward an area in any way, it just gives each creature in it the benefit of a Protection From [Alignment] spell. OTOH, by analogy with the 'prison' configuration, it would be reasonable to treat the circle itself as a barrier that is impenetrable in one direction (for conjured creatures). And by extension from the alignment issues with the 'untouchable' effect of the Protection From [Alignment] spells, the barrier would only affect conjured outsiders of the correct alignment.

I don't see any justification in the text for ruling that the whole area is off-limits to outsiders. Note that in the 'prison' configuration, the area outside the circle is not warded against outsiders-they just can't pass the barrier. And even that barrier is ineffective against Gate and other means of crossing to other planes-the barrier is on the Prime Material only.

 

[Arravis]

I would have to disagree, if you use Gate as a Calling spell, then the creatureisconjured.

On pg 157 of the players, in the Calling section, it states that Magic Circles do work with "Spells that call powerful extraplanar creatures...". Gate is a Calling spell, so it would qualify.


**OTOH, by analogy with the 'prison' configuration, it would be reasonable to treat the circle itself as a barrier that is impenetrable in one direction (for conjured creatures).**

I do agree with this. But, it's unclear one way or the other, especially with a spell like Unhallow. Is just the periphery so protected?


**And by extension from the alignment issues with the 'untouchable' effect of the Protection From [Alignment] spells, the barrier would only affect conjured outsiders of the correct alignment.**

If you mean that a Protection From Evil only protects vs evil aligned conjured or summoned creatures, I disagree. The description sees to make no such mention. I agree with Urbanmech. If it's a magic circle vs. evil, then only Good conjured or summoned creatures could penetrate the barrier.

 

[Christian]

I would have to disagree, if you use Gate as a Calling spell, then the creature is conjured.

Absolutely

If you mean that a Protection From Evil only protects vs evil aligned conjured or summoned creatures, I disagree. The description sees to make no such mention. I agree with Urbanmech. If it's a magic circle vs. evil, then only Good conjured or summoned creatures could penetrate the barrier.

It's an oddity of the rules that only Protection From Evil protects against true neutral creatures, as the rules are written. But yes, that is what Protection From Evil says-personally, I think it's what all of the Protection From [Alignment] spells should say ...

I do agree with this. But, it's unclear one way or the other, especially with a spell like Unhallow. Is just the periphery so protected?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. As written, the Magic Circle spell would give everyone within the circle the benefit of a Protection from [Alignment] effect. There is nothing in the spell description to suggest that beings of any kind are hedged out of the whole circle-they just can't touch anyone in it. I was suggesting that it made sense to extend the description of the spell to make a barrier around the outside of the area of effect, just for consistency. (The 'imprisonment' version of the spell creates a barrier that prevents conjured outsiders from passing from inside the circle to outside; so shouldn't the standard version create a barrier that prevents the creatures from passing from outside to inside?)

But there is nothing in the spell description that even remotely suggests that conjured outsiders cannot be in the warded area, whichever interpretation you pick. If they're in, they're in. If they're out, they can't *get* in (except with a successful SR check, or via extradimensional travel-eg. a Gate), under the second interpretation. But that's a different matter, and it's a pretty broad interpretation in any case. Extending that interpretation farther is not warranted by any text in any of the Protection from [Alignment] or Magic Circle Against [Alignment] that I can see.

 

[Urbanmech]

I really do think that a Hallow/Unhallow spells continual circle of protection effect would keep summoned creatures of the correct alignments away and prevent their summoning. This plays up the whole demons/devils can't tread on holy ground thing.

I really think they dropped the ball in including "conjured" creatures in the text of protection from evil. This is a vague term, especially since they also include summoned which is a term attached to conjuration spells. There is no (conjured) tag associated with any conjuration spells. If the intent of the spell is to keep out any creature/construct brought into being by a conjuration spell then why even bother to say summoned and conjured? Isn't the summoned term redundant? Protection from (alignment) are already quite powerful already, do they really need to shut down all magical "bring a creature to fight for me" spells? Should a simple 1st level magic trump a GATE? Sorry not going to happen in my game world.

 

[Christian]

I really do think that a Hallow/Unhallow spells continual circle of protection effect would keep summoned creatures of the correct alignments away and prevent their summoning. This plays up the whole demons/devils can't tread on holy ground thing.

That's certainly evocative, but it's not supported by the text of the Protection, Magic Circle, or [Un]Hallow spells.

I really think they dropped the ball in including "conjured" creatures in the text of protection from evil. This is a vague term, especially since they also include summoned which is a term attached to conjuration spells. There is no (conjured) tag associated with any conjuration spells. If the intent of the spell is to keep out any creature/construct brought into being by a conjuration spell then why even bother to say summoned and conjured? Isn't the summoned term redundant? Protection from (alignment) are already quite powerful already, do they really need to shut down all magical "bring a creature to fight for me" spells? Should a simple 1st level magic trump a GATE? Sorry not going to happen in my game world.

Let me make sure I understand ... you're complaining that Magic Circle ought to prevent summoning/calling entirely within it's area of effect, then complaining that applying this consistently is too powerful and should be restricted.

Protection from Evil does not 'trump' the Gate spell, or any other summoning spell. It's great against Summon Monster I, and to some extent against higher-level Summon Monster spells, as long as nothing called up is armed. Magic Circle is useful for Lesser Planar Binding (but I sure wouldn't rely on it too much for higher-level spells in that series). But if you think that your 1st level wizard's Protection from Evil is going to keep him safe from the Pit Fiend that was just Gated in, you really need to read the SR rules again, not to mention the monster description ...

Yes, the 'summoned' term is redundant. But if the spell only applies to summoned creatures, the 'conjured' term is flat-out wrong. I'd prefer to treat the rules as redundant rather than wrong, especially in the Rules forum.

 

[Arravis]

I do think that Protection vs. Evil does work against a Gated Pit Fiend if he was brought in via the Called version the spell. Now, mind you, all it does is protect you from him physically touching you and only if he fails his SR check. If you were so lucky, I'd think it would make little difference, he's got plenty more on his arsenal to kick butt with .

 

[Christian]

Yep. Although the SR check is a level check made by the wizard with the SR number as his target. I sincerely wish the 1st level wizard luck in rolling a 27 on his d20.