Do elves stack (in a 5' square)

[Greythax]

Hello Everyone,

I have been lurking here for a while and I would like to start off by saying that you all are incredibly knowledgeable and have helped me immeasurably with my understanding of the rules and I would like to thank you for services already rendered. With that said, here is my question;

My group has run into several circumstances of late that have us ending up occupying the same square as a creature or a pc.

1. Can you "Choose" to occupy the same square as an ally, or is this prohibited. How about an enemy?

2. In the rules for bull rush, it states that attacks of opportunity provoked suffer a 25% chance of hitting your opponent instead of you. Is there a similar (general) rule that applies to occupying the same square?

3. Just how many people can occupy the same square? I get bizarre mental images of acrobats stacked ad infinitum on one another's shoulders.

4. When grappled by a creature with more than a 5' facing, is there a good method of determining what square you are in, if it occupies, say a 10' x 10' area?

5. Does "moving with" an opponent in a bull rush leave you in the same square as him?

6. When you wriggle free(use escape artist) of a grapple, are you still in the same 5' square, or are you placed in an adjacent square? Also, can you wriggle free as a partial action?

7. Do you threaten squares around you if you are occupying the same square as an ally / opponent while you are NOT grappling?

As I am a commensurate rules lawyer, any chapter and verse is greatly appreciated (or page number) is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance

Greythax

 

[ForceUser]

1. No. Regardless of whether or not an ally allows you to move through the space he occupies, you must end your move in a different square. The acrobat example, while clever, merely means that the fellow standing on your shoulders is in a different square 5' directly above you.

2. No, since you can't end your move in the same square as another person.

3. Moot.

4. I don't have my PHB handy, but I'd assume that since you can't occupy the same square as another creature, you'd merely be adjacent, within 5 feet.

5. No. If you bull rush your opponent back 5 feet, you move forward 5 feet and occupy the square you forced him out of. Bull rushes are great for knocking someone off a cliff

6. You move to an adjacent square. Using the Escape Artist skill is, I believe, a full-round action.

7. Moot.

Unfortunately, I don't have my PHB with me here at work. If I remember later I'll edit in the page numbers.

 

[Greythax]

1. No. Regardless of whether or not an ally allows you to move through the space he occupies, you must end your move in a different square. The acrobat example, while clever, merely means that the fellow standing on your shoulders is in a different square 5' directly above you.

Ok, I am willing to accept this, I am assuming this is hidden somewhere in the PH under movement?

2. No, since you can't end your move in the same square as another person.

Well, ok, but in order to grapple, you must move into the same square as your opponent. At the end of your action would you not still be grappleing and hence still be occupying the same square?

3. Moot.

If the only circumstance that you can occupy the same square is in a grapple, then their are rules in the PH that tell the maximum number of grapplers by size, and thus 3 is moot. But lets flip this around to Bull Rush, lets say that you bull rush someone into an already occupied square, what then?

4. I don't have my PHB handy, but I'd assume that since you can't occupy the same square as another creature, you'd merely be adjacent, within 5 feet.

I am willing buy that, that's what we have been doing the whole time anyway, just curious if there was something more concrete.

5. No. If you bull rush your opponent back 5 feet, you move forward 5 feet and occupy the square you forced him out of. Bull rushes are great for knocking someone off a cliff

Ok, true, but you can also choose to "move with" your opponent, thereby moving him an additional 1 foot for every point by which you excede his die result on the opposed check. My qestion was more along the lines of, if you "move with" him, after having to move into his square to initiate the bull rush, would you then end up in the same square?

6. You move to an adjacent square. Using the Escape Artist skill is, I believe, a full-round action.

Nope, escape artist to wriggle free is a standard action which allows you to move afterwards (that is how they word it in the last paragraph)

I don't intend to come off to argumentative over this, I am just trying to get to the root of this. Thanks for the reply though, I really appreciate it, if you have any more thoughts, please lemme know.


Greythax

 

[FANGO]

Okay....

Yes, you can occupy the same square, thats the only way that grapple and bull rush would work (since they both contain a 'moving in' step). However, at the end of your movement for bull rush, I do believe you need to be in a different square, so it works nicely to push people off of cliffs. However, when grappling, you do need to be in the same square as the person you're grappling. If the creature has bigger than a 5' face, i would just consider you as taking up all of the space that the creature also takes up, and when you get out you can place yourself at any adjacent square (you also dont threaten an area while grappling, so you dont need to worry about someone threatening more area due to being grappled by a large creature). Also, under the bull rush section of the PHB, it does mention that if you are knocked back into a space that is occupied you fall down...so I would assume if you push someone else into a space that is occupied, they fall down too (and end up in the occupied space, prone). Also, keep in mind that you can pass through friendly squares during normal movement, you just cant end your move in them.

Hmm, hope I answered things....

 

[hong]

Stacked elves is not a picture I wanted put in my mind.

 

[ForceUser]

don't intend to come off to argumentative over this, I am just trying to get to the root of this. Thanks for the reply though, I really appreciate it, if you have any more thoughts, please lemme know.

Not at all. I'm just going off the top of my head. I'd pull out my PHB now to verify, but alas, it's late and I need to hit the sack.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

What would YOU do?

Imagine your 6 PCs want to cross a lake on a raft, and build it 10x10. That seems a plenty good size for a raft to hold 6 people, right? Okay, so now they're crossing the lake when they get attacked by some pixies--enter combat mode. There are only 4 5-foot squares on the raft. Do you force 2 PCs off the raft and into the lake? Do you let them all stay but only let 4 attack, and if so do the ones doubling up take penalties, or do you let them all fight but with some penalty for sharing a space, where applicable?

The problem I allude to with this example is this: While it's all well and good to say that you can't stack more than 1 med size creature per 5' square in a fight, it's not uncommon to have noncombat situations where creatures would be packed in more densely. What happens if you then go into combat, and there's nowhere to spread?

 

[Cross]

Prone?

This brings up a question my group's had for a while now: can you occupy the same square as an unconscious or dead individual? If so, can you occupy the same square as a prone individual who's not unconscious?

- Cross Nightwalker
- Acquisitions Expert, Onyx Claw Consortium

 

[Gez]

If you want to occupy the same space as someone else, here are two ways for doing so.

The first requires you to have Monsters of Faerûn and to be a Gibberling. Up to three gibberlings can occupy the same square.

The second requires you to have Dragon #285 and to take the Swarmfighting feat. Two people, both with that feat, can occupy the same 5-ft. square.

Finally, you have another, easiest, way to do this, you just need to have a face/reach entry beginning by something like 2.5 ft. by 2.5 ft./something, or smaller. These common red spiders you can often see on stone walls have a face/reach of 0 ft. by 0 ft./0 ft., for example. You can stack a lot of them in a 5-ft. square, assuming you can catch some.

 

[Thanee]

Hey, elves love to have a little freedom, hence their chaotic good nature!

Creatures have to spread out to occupy different squares unless otherwise noted (exceptions include during a Bull Rush or Grapple, when riding a horse, or when attacking with 0' Reach, etc.).

Bye
Thanee