Do Entangle, Grease and Web ruin D&D?

[spectre72]

A recent happening in our campaign...

We were sneaking into the main arcane school in our GM's world, which just happened to be taken over by demons (all of the mages were in stasis - long story ).

I told the party I was casting Briar Web as soon as we encountered any demons.

16 or so weak demons were encountered, and the dwarf charged.

Briar Web was cast and he was stuck in the mess.

The demons didn't do anything, and the dwarf was stuck and couldn't do anything.

We cleaned up the demons with ranged weapons, and then the dwarf asked me to hold my spell next time.

To which I replied, "I told you what I was doing and you still charged".

We came to the agreement that both of us had done what we needed to, and will do so again next time

 

[Rel]

I'll go with the concensus and say that I don't think that any of these spells are game breaking. All three have significant limitations that make the opportunity cost for taking them rather considerable.

On the upside, Entangle is enormous. We made clear plastic templates for various area effect spells to use on our battlemat and the Entangle template is 16 inches across! But (according to the way we play the spell) you simply can't use it indoors or underground. There is not enough natural vegitation in such areas to allow the spell to be useful. This is in spite of what you see in Neverwinter Nights.

Web, as has been pointed out, is easily destroyed by fire. Provided that any of the enemy has a quick and effective means of making fire (Prestidigitation is often used), it simply buys the party a few rounds of breathing room and is a 2nd level area effect damage spell that does 2d4. Also, the requirement that it have two or more surfaces to attach to means that you seldom get the full area of effect out of it and it is often useless outdoors.

Grease has the least limitations on where it can be used but if the area is too big then any enemies that aren't in it at the time of casting can simply go around it. It is most useful for area denial. In a dungeon environment, it can block a corridor but anybody who can fly, jump far or climb well can bypass it fairly easily.

These spells don't concern me at all. I've got far greater issues with Miasma and Greater Magic Weapon, both of which I've house ruled.

 

[derelictjay]

Lets see grease and entangle I've got no problem with. Web, I've got no problem with, but I've seen the spell grind the game to a halt. Example: A large group of goblins were attacking the PCs who were 5th level I believe. When the wizard of the group cast Web, now none of the participants (goblins or PCs) had fire available to them, and none of them were able to make their strength checks either. So we had several rounds of dice rolling to move in the Web and nothing else, very boring. But gamebreakers, none of these spells do that.

 

[rkanodia]

Maybe a way to speed up Grease, Web, and Entangle would be to have them use existing mechanics rather than having to look them up every time. For instance, they could look like this:

Web/Entangle: At the time of casting, each creature that fails its saving throw is considered grappled. Any time a creature not currently grappled by the spell attempts to move, attack, cast a spell, or take any other physical action in the spell's area of affect, the spell attempts to grapple that creature. The grapple check for a Web or Entangle is always equal to its save DC. Applying fire to a web ignites it, dealing 2d4 fire damage to all creatures in the area and freeing them from the grapple effect.

Grease: At the time of casting, each creature that fails its saving throw falls to the ground, prone. Any time a creature who is not prone attempts to move, attack, cast a spell, or take any other physical action in the spell's area of effect, the spell attempts to knock that creature down. Treat this as a trip attack which automatically suceeds its touch attack and has a trip check equal to the spell's save DC. This spell can also be cast on an item instead of a location; in that case, the item attempts to disarm any person who picks it up, causing it to be dropped if that person fails to beat its disarm check (again, equal to the spell's save DC).

I haven't actually run the numbers on this to see how they compare in power, but does anyone else like the idea of using the existing combat mechanics?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I find it interesting that Web, Grease and Entangle earned his ire but not Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Acid Fog, and Wall of Force.

Entangle can be frustrating outdoors and I generally now allow characters with alchemist's fire to burn or cut their way through.

Web is fairly easy to counter though it can be effective. I worry more about Glitterdust though. Web is pretty tricky to use outdoors though which mitigates its effectiveness a lot.

Grease--what's the problem with Grease?

All told, the only thing I can see "ruining" D&D from these spells is parties that cast them and then shoot all their enemies until they die. But that only works in certain situations (most of which aren't in dungeons) and enemies with missile weapons can still shoot back.

 

[Privateer]

Maybe a way to speed up Grease, Web, and Entangle would be to have them use existing mechanics rather than having to look them up every time. For instance, they could look like this:

--cut for space--

My good man or woman, that's brilliant. I'm not sure how it matches up either, but I'm using that in my game once I figure out if it's about on par.

 

[Malin Genie]

No - Evard's Black Tentacles ruins the game. Grappled - so cannot cast spells, need an attack action at least to escape - and then risk being grappled again next round - yeuchh!

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

These spells have all gotten good use in my game, and while they've occasionally caused my a little DMing frustration, I wouldn't think of removing them. Players need lots of smart options, and these spells provide them.

If players aren't challenging the DM and making him work, they're not trying.

 

[VirtualWizard]

It seems to me that the monsters lost this one because they didn't stay together. Sure, the Web spell slowed the monsters down, but if they had moved at the pace of the slowest member, they would have faced the party together. Instead, the monsters chose to fight as individuals giving the adventurer group all the advantages. In this case, Web doesn't seem like a game breaker just a tactic disrupter.