Do familiars level up ?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Familiars do not level up. They advance only according to the familiar advancement table in the Wizard class description.

 

[Volaran]

Volaran is correct: the specific overrides the general.

The Familiar section specifically states “For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.”

No dispute on the phrasing there. I checked the 3.0 and 3.5 srds as well. The phrasing is identical for 3.5, and is very similar for 3.0. I admit that I do have trouble picturing a situation where a familiar would normally have a higher HD than its Master. Possibly where improved familiars have a base of 2-4 HD, and the master has acquired some permanent negative levels. For the most part though, I consider this more of an oddity of phrasing that has not been corrected across two revisions of the game.

All of the core sample familiars begin with less than a full hit die (unlike their Master who has a full 1d4) clearly indicating they CAN gain additional hit dice and since the Familiar section does not specify otherwise, they follow the general rules for Improving Monsters which states each hit die gained increases a magical beast’s Fort and Reflex saving throws by one, provides an additional (2+ Int mod) skill points, and may increase its base size (with associated changes).

This, I do dispute. First, I would note that the casters capable of acquiring familiars (the wizard, the sorcerer, and the current beta version of the magus) all have d6 or d8 hit dice, rather than the d4 you have indicated. Also, the base familiars are animals with a fractional CR, not a partial hit die. They all have one hit die in their Bestiary listings.

Having a good save (in this case, fortitude and reflex) does not indicate that it increases with every racial hit die. A good racial save starts at +2 at the first hit die, and then increases with every even hit die. However, since familiars don't gain 'real' hit dice as standard animals or magical beasts, they will be using their master's Will saves most likely from level 1, and their master's Fort and Reflex saves after level 9 (when the wizard's and sorcerer's base Fort and Reflex saves increase to +3). This may vary slightly with Improved Familiars.

Next, let me draw your attention to the first paragraph in the familiar section:

A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.

The familiar is a basic animal when summoned. You cannot bind a 3HD hawk as a familiar for example. As the bolded section indicates, all the qualities of the base animal remain unchanged, and it becomes a magical animal for the purposes of effects that depend on type. This is likely due to the intelligence increase tied to the master's level, and as noted, only refers to game effects that depend on type (eg. charm animal does not affect the familiar, but charm monster does, or an animal bane weapon would not affect the familiar, but a magic beast bane weapon would). It makes no reference to advancing the familiar as a magical beast, but it does then lead to an entire section devoted to explaining how the familiar advances along with its master.

Now, I should note that a specific exception is made in the Improved Familiar feat, as many of them are outsiders, fey, etc:

Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).

Thus unless I missed an errata or Pathfinder seriously changed it, -ALL- Familiars have:
* a type of Magical Beast

My assertion is not that Pathfinder has changed the familiar rules from 3.5, or that this is something that has errata. I believe it would be inelegant design to have a player be required to the read the section on magical beasts in order to understand how familiars work. The relevant rules for familiars are contained in the appropriate animal or creature description, in the familiar section itself and in the Improved Familiar feat. This has not changed from 3.5, and if you were using this interpretation in previous versions of the game, I would also suggest you were incorrect.

Moreover, as noted above, the opening paragraph for the familiar section describes the purposes for which a familiar is considered a magical beast, and the Improved Familiar feat described additional type exceptions.

* 10-sided Hit Dice

A familiar essentially has a 'virtual hit die', rather than a d10, since all effects related to hit dice are determined by the master's level rather than its own as things progress. The first hit die of the base creature is a d10. Even if we were to follow your logic that suggests familiars can gain class levels, that would also mean the d10 hit die was not universal.

* a base attack bonus equal to their Master's BAB. (instead of their total hit dice)
* have half their Master's total hit points regardless of their hit dice.
* use the better of their own or Master's saving throws. As magical beasts, they have Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.

Correct, though it should be noted that Animals also have a good Fortitude and Reflex save, so that does not change. The exact text is as follows:

Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the familiar's base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will +0) or the master's (as calculated from all his classes), whichever is better. The familiar uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn't share any of the other bonuses that the master might have on saves.

As you can see, this section also notes the familiar base saving throw bonuses for a 1 hit die animal or magical beast. Somewhat frustratingly, an exception is not made for Improved Familiars, but I feel it is a reasonable extrapolation to use the base saving throws for the Improved Familiar's as appropriate to their creature type, and their hit dice at the time they became a familiar.

* Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. However they use the better of their own or Master’s skill ranks; applying their own modifiers.

Also not defined in the familiar rules.

Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.

Again, as a familiar does not improve in its actual hit die, so it has the skill ranks of the base creature (whether a 1HD animal, or the appropriate Improved Familiar). The references to class skills indicate which skills possessed by the base animal, or the master are considered for class skill bonuses. For example, even if the familiar has no ranks of its own in Swim, if its master does, the familiar can add the +3 class skill bonus.

Another telling sign here is that the familiar section includes no mention of acquiring feats, which should certainly be the case if the familiar gained 'real' hit dice rather than 'virtual' hit dice.

* provide their Master with a specific ability (such as a skill bonus) while within 1-mile of him.
* gain additional abilities detailed within the Familiar section based upon their Master’s class level
* Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
* Proficient with its natural weapons only.
* Proficient with no armor.
* Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.

Improved Familiars do not provide a special ability or skill bonus.

Therefore the question is not whether Familiars can improve, but to what degree. RAW clearly states they can earn/gain additional racial hit dice and templates. It likewise states the Master must take the Improved Familiar feat if/when a template is applied.

I was unable to find an example of this in the Monster Advancement section (which does not contain the word 'Familiar'), the Improved Familiar feat, or the general section on familiars.

I understand that you believe familiars to be standard magical beasts, but the opening paragraph of the Familiars section clearly states the specific way familiars are treated as magical beasts, not that they fully advance as magical beasts.

It does make sense to consider adapting the Improved Familiar feat to allow a template. Certainly that is essentially what is being done for things like the fiendish/celestial hawk, etc. I feel this is a reasonable extrapolation, as long as the template keeps the familiar's power level in the general area of the creatures available as improved familiars at caster level 3, 5 and 7. For any template that increased power beyond this, I would consider some sort of follow up feat (Greater Familiar, etc.), but that is up to designers, or individual GMs.

I suggest this feat be expanded to allow familiars to become Classed like other sentient creatures of comparable intelligence (6-15 depending upon their Master’s level), imposing a Class level-cap equal to their Master’s level-2 per the cohort rules to prevent the possibility of the familiar overshadowing its Master, allowing the familiar to optionally retain excess experience points unassigned until their Master levels further or be applied to additional Hit dice with the corresponding benefits.

It seems more reasonable to me to have this be a special cohort operating under the Leadership feat. Essentially, what you are describing is an awakened animal gaining class levels. That seems reasonable to me.

However, an awakened animal gaining class levels and full familiar benefits is potentially very valuable. Certainly it would be worth more than a single feat (in my opinion). I'm not sure I would suggest this be included in the game as a default, but as a GM, if a player came to me and suggested this, I would require them to take both Improved Familiar and Leadership. Or at least, that is my initial reaction.

For example Apprentice Harold summons a hawk to be his familiar, gain a +3 on his own listen checks whenever its within 1-mile. In exchange, the hawk transforms into a magical beast, gaining the standard abilities. As such, it uses its newly discovered abilities and racial skills to help Harold navigate a number of low-level situations, and help him avoid a number of what would have been overwhelming odds. Such events eventually compound into enough XP for the hawk to gain another hit die, improving its Listening skill by 2pts.

Eventually Harold reaches level 3 and selects the Improved Familiar feat to imbue his hawk with the Celestial template, providing it with Acid Resistance 5, Cold 5, Electricity 5; SR 7; and allowing it to use Smite Good once per day.
By this time, the hawk has gained sufficient Xp to increase another hit die, but instead decides (having an Int:7) to become a Rogue, applying its initial 32 skill points learning to fly (move) silently, search, and improve its Spot/Listen skills. It selects Improve Natural Attack for its first level feat to increase its talon damage from 1d4-2 to 1d6-2.

Harold spends the next several months scribing scrolls between rather mundane adventures, during which the hawk makes some lucky sneak-attacks earning enough Xp to advance further. However Harold has not, so rather than increasing its racial hit dice, the hawk opts to leave the points unassigned until Harold gains a level so it further its own career, gaining the rogue's evasion class ability.

In general, I should note that the experience rules are an abstract that apply to PCs in general (though the Leadership feat specifically mentions experience as it applies to cohorts), rather than every NPC and creature encountered. Even if I were to except your idea of familiars advancing as magical beasts, magical beasts don't advance through experience points unless they are PCs (or cohorts, etc.). Certainly an NPC that is high level can be assumed to have gone through a lot to get there, but a particularly large and terrible basilisk (to pull a random example) may just represent a particularly impressive specimen by birth.

Racial Hit Dice are not equal to Class levels, and are not earned in the same fashion.

Your example suggests the idea of unassigned experience points if the familiar/cohort would not be able to gain in power further until its master does. This contradicts the general rules for cohorts, who simply stay at 1 experience point short of their level gain. If you were to allow familiar/cohorts as a house rule, I would not suggest making them an exception to this by allowing them to stockpile 'unused' experience.

Keep in mind that cohorts don't earn experience separately either. You normally divide the cohort's level by your character's level, and then multiply the result by the amount of experience awarded to your character.

Back to the original topic, I have a suggestion. I have taken a cursory glace a number of the Paizo adventure paths, and have not been able to find a single example of an NPC with a familiar that has been advanced as a magical beast in the way you describe. If you can find an example of an NPC in a Paizo adventure (or even a WotC adventure from the 3.5 or 3.0 days) with a familiar that has been advanced by hit dice as a magical beast in exactly the way you describe, I will certainly be happy to take a look at it.

Until then, I may check this thread, but I don't intend to respond in depth like this again. This response took too long to type for me to do it again.

 

[Kaisoku]

Since nothing in the Familiar section (either specifically or implicably) states they are incapable of self-improvement, they would advance according the to Improving Monsters section like other magical beasts -- which states it could do so “by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template” and that “these methods are not mutually exclusive— it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels."

A couple problems.

1. In pathfinder, there isn't an "Improving Monsters" section. It's called "Monster Advancement", which has this line as the main explanation of the section:
"The following rules allow you to adjust monsters, increasing (or even decreasing) their statistics and abilities while still creating a balanced and fun encounter."
This is clearly meant for GMs trying to create encounters. It is not rules for advancing a character via experience.

2. The section on "Adding Racial Hitdice" says this:
"Adding racial Hit Dice to a monster is a similar process to building a monster from scratch."
This is clearly meant to be used for creating a monster for an encounter, as you don't "create from scratch" each level.

3. The section on "Adding Class Levels" says this:
"Of all the methods of advancing a monster, adding class levels requires the most adjudication and careful comparison."
Once again, it's not just 'gain experience, add levels', it's 'GM making an encounter and using the base monster + class levels to get what he wants'.


And while Pathfinder did reword the bestiary, they haven't really changed the process from 3.5e.

The quote you posted is the preface to the Improving Monsters section of the Monster Manual. If you continue reading, you will get the following details about hitdice:
"Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows."

Considering these are the same rules that apply to humanoids and animals as they do magical beasts, it's not about gaining experience and magically becoming bigger somehow. It's talking about a naturally larger specimen, that at best grew into the new HD.
Remember, in 3.5e, each creature had an "Advancement" entry, which showed specifically how big that creature "might" grow (usually a range with a size increase noted next to it).
The Familiars in 3.5e mostly had NO advancement available, if you went strictly by the rules, but even then.. that's what the line "a normal unmodified animal" means. Increasing the HD would make it a modified animal (a "beefier" version), it needs to be the standard bestiary version.


Finally.. "gaining experience" is specifically defined in both 3.5e and Pathfinder. It's something that PCs get.

NPCs, Monsters, etc, do not gain experience normally. If you buy a dog, or hire a henchman, they do not gain experience when they come along with you on adventures. Not by RAW.

The only rules in place for experience for non-PCs is in the Leadership feat, and even that specifically mentions it's for the cohort, and very specific in how it's handled (which was changed between 3.5e and Pathfinder I believe, without looking).
What is most damning, is how it specifically mentions that the followers do not gain experience, and in fact you simply gain higher level followers when those levels open up.

Familiars do not gain experience. There would have to be a clause mentioning that they do.
Since they can't gain racial hit dice normally (it's a factor of growing), and they can't gain a template (short of some strange event causing it, such as vampirism or lycanthropy, and even then, they'd have to qualify), that only leaves class levels as an even remotely possible option.
Now, they qualify for it in the sense that they have enough Intelligence, but since they are not your cohort, it simply isn't in the RAW.

Just like your henchmen and followers, and purchased pets, your familiar has no rules allowing it to gain experience. Hence the reason for it to have so many factors based on the master: it's going to need them since it's not advancing on it's own.


TL;DR - You are referencing rules meant for GMs adjudicating encounters that aren't the default from the Monster Manual or Bestiary. They are not meant for Players to advance familiars.

 

[TanisFrey]

I could see a Familiar's HD being greater than a mage's level in one case from 3.5 Races of the Wild splatbook. It has a prestige class called Arcane Hieropant, a Wizard/Druid combo class. You dismiss your normal familiar and treat your animal companion as a familiar. You take you animal companion and add familiar abilities to it, even giving it 1/2 your hit points unless it already had more, which is likely. The prestige class stacks with druid for animal companion's abilities and with wizard for familiar's abilities.

The quickest you could get this prestige class is about level 8 by Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Thaumaturge 2, I think. Effectively druid 5 for animal companion's abilities and wizard 5 for familiar's abilities.

Over all my point is that if you multiclass any way, your wizard level does not increase for familiar unless it is specifically says so. The vast majority of 3.5 Prestige classes did not add the wizard/sorcerer's effective level for familiars abilities. And sometimes multiclassing and/or prestige classes leads to the familiar's HD increasing greater than a wizard/sorcerer's effective level.

 

[Volaran]

I could see a Familiar's HD being greater than a mage's level in one case from 3.5 Races of the Wild splatbook. It has a prestige class called Arcane Hieropant, a Wizard/Druid combo class. You dismiss your normal familiar and treat your animal companion as a familiar. You take you animal companion and add familiar abilities to it, even giving it 1/2 your hit points unless it already had more, which is likely. The prestige class stacks with druid for animal companion's abilities and with wizard for familiar's abilities.

The quickest you could get this prestige class is about level 8 by Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Thaumaturge 2, I think. Effectively druid 5 for animal companion's abilities and wizard 5 for familiar's abilities.

Over all my point is that if you multiclass any way, your wizard level does not increase for familiar unless it is specifically says so. The vast majority of 3.5 Prestige classes did not add the wizard/sorcerer's effective level for familiars abilities. And sometimes multiclassing and/or prestige classes leads to the familiar's HD increasing greater than a wizard/sorcerer's effective level.

This is kind of a quick one.

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.

For this particular familiar ability, their effective HD is their master's character level rather their class level or caster level. So the familiar of a Fighter5/Wizard5 would have 10 virtual hit dice for effects that are related to hit dice (Sleep spells, Blasphemy, etc).

If it were class level-dependent, it would make a bit more sense to me.

 

[TanisFrey]

This is kind of a quick one.



For this particular familiar ability, their effective HD is their master's character level rather their class level or caster level. So the familiar of a Fighter5/Wizard5 would have 10 virtual hit dice for effects that are related to hit dice (Sleep spells, Blasphemy, etc).

If it were class level-dependent, it would make a bit more sense to me.

I am just saying that if someone digs deep enough into 3rd party 3.5 material and/or homebrew, someone may find an animal companion that will have greater HD than character level of a Arcane Hieropant, when you add the extra hit dice a druid animal companion gets.

 

[Mojo_Rat]

to the op. what you want to do is a house rule. you do not have to cite any rules be ause what you want to do is not connected to pathfinders familiar rules. familiars are exactly what they are listed as in their entry under wizards.

if you want to make familiars stronger in your game that is fine, just do not confuse it as being raw. that said I recommend if you want the upper familiar let players have one if they take the leadership feat and improved familiar then just use the cohort rules.

it will result in an overly strong familiar but if that's you want go for it

 

[Kaisoku]

I am just saying that if someone digs deep enough into 3rd party 3.5 material and/or homebrew, someone may find an animal companion that will have greater HD than character level of a Arcane Hieropant, when you add the extra hit dice a druid animal companion gets.

That might have been the case in 3.5e or 3.0e, but in Pathfinder even the druid's animal companion (and so the Paladin and Cavalier's mounts), all have HD based on the chart, not the bestiary entry.
After 2nd level, the HD of the animal companion is equal or lower to the character anyways. Even if you were to multiclass a Druid 1, Wizard 1, Arcane Heirophant 1 (which I would assume is not possible), you'd be looking at having 3 class HD with a 2 or 3 HD companion as your familiar...

In earlier 3e editions, animals as class features had the potential for higher HD. They don't anymore in Pathfinder.
The text for Hit Dice in the familiar section in Pathfinder is exactly the same, word for word, as the 3.5e entry. This is simply a case of a copy/paste from one edition to the next, where the text isn't exactly applicable anymore, but since it doesn't really impact anything, doesn't warrant an errata.

 

[TanisFrey]

That might have been the case in 3.5e or 3.0e, but in Pathfinder even the druid's animal companion (and so the Paladin and Cavalier's mounts), all have HD based on the chart, not the bestiary entry.
After 2nd level, the HD of the animal companion is equal or lower to the character anyways. Even if you were to multiclass a Druid 1, Wizard 1, Arcane Heirophant 1 (which I would assume is not possible), you'd be looking at having 3 class HD with a 2 or 3 HD companion as your familiar...

In earlier 3e editions, animals as class features had the potential for higher HD. They don't anymore in Pathfinder.
The text for Hit Dice in the familiar section in Pathfinder is exactly the same, word for word, as the 3.5e entry. This is simply a case of a copy/paste from one edition to the next, where the text isn't exactly applicable anymore, but since it doesn't really impact anything, doesn't warrant an errata.

1) You have to be at least Druid 3/Wizard 3 and may still be lacking the skills ranks to get in to Arcane Heiropant. You still may be lacking be lacking ranks for level in 3.5 at this level. You need 8 ranks of Knowledge (Arcane) and Knowlede (Nature). Doable but tough at 2 skill ranks per level and the need to take the Arcana skill cross-classed half the time.

2) The discussion had drifted into how this worked in 3.x, and I pointed out one cast where it might matter in 3.5. I was not intending to applied it to PF rule set, I am aware of the change in PF animal companions.

 

[Kaisoku]

The posts you were responding to were about how Pathfinder runs familiars/animal companions, so I was clarifying that it still wouldn't work even if you ported over the Arcane Heirophant. The line was a typo at best, not a clear pass to level up your familiar (that's meant for jefgorbach, not TanisFrey).

Now, if your GM changes how Pathfinder runs Animal Companions as well, I see what you are talking about. But that's more than just letting in some 3.5e splat stuff... it's changing core mechanics.
At that point, all bets are off and the GM will have to take balancing things into his own hands (there have been good suggestions in this thread for that).